Dispute: Jeremy Young - Arcade - Donkey Kong - Points [Hammer Allowed] - Player: Billy L Mitchell - Score: 1,062,800

Is this a valid dispute?

    This poll is closed
This poll is closed
  1. 09-18-2019, 07:48 AM
    Quote Originally Posted by maxim_recoil View Post
    I could easily do it myself with the video editing method. I would record the screen for the entire session with screen capture software, edit out the parts that show restarts from save states, then record the edited video to a VHS tape. The only problem is, MAME has an onscreen display that comes up when you save a state and when you load from a save state. I don't know if the onscreen display can easily be disabled or not.

    As for stitching together INPs, I have no idea how to do that. That would be the ideal method though, because there's no onscreen display issue to worry about, nor do you have to find the perfect frames to make your editing cuts on if doing it via video editing.

    Do early editions of MAME have the onscreen display? What screen capture software was available back then? Would it be able to create videos of comparable quality and framerate?

    I have my doubt, so I will add it to the list of items I am researching from that time period.
    Your friend, datagod
    Creator of Arcade Retro Clock

  2. 09-18-2019, 08:01 AM
    Patrick Scott Patterson
    15 mins ·

    I operate in full "I owe nobody an explanation" mode these days, so I hesitate to post this. I no longer want to be posting these sorts of things for public context-shredding over the desired "come to me directly - like an adult - if you have questions" preference.

    But in an era where nobody fact checks anymore, it's going to necessary at times. In this case, it seems to be coming up in the pending "legal action" being taken by Billy Mitchell against Twin Galaxies and Guinness World Records. And it involves tapes.

    There's a lot of incorrect claims out there about the fate of various Twin Galaxies footage. Here is the truth of it, being posted only as a reference for anyone who needs to use it.

    NOTE: Several of my remarks may paint former TG owner Pete Bouvier in a bad light. Some of you know that Pete passed away a short time back due to complications from Alzheimer's. It is possible the issues I explain below were due to early issues he was having with that disease and I want to make it clear that I did not know until his passing that he was going through that.

    Here goes.


    I worked at Twin Galaxies from October 2008 to February 2011. In the summer of 2008, I'd been offered a position with the company by then-head referee Blaine Locklair, but turned it down. Pete Bouvier called me in October of that year to make me an offer to join the staff in a multi-faceted role, doing so on the suggestion of Locklair, who was taking a leave of absence.

    I was brought in as a jack of all trades. Pete had plans for the company and I was to use my experience with video gaming, television, media, business and live events to get us there. This included marketing, negotiations with companies, writing and refereeing among other tasks.

    At the time, TG had a lot of platforms that had no referee or slow/inactive ones. So in my interests of fixing anything under TG's hood, I volunteered to be a verification source for any of those challenged platforms that I had knowledge on.

    So basically, for the next couple of years to follow, I got in a lot of submission footage. Most of it was on videocassette.

    One of my constant suggestions to Bouvier is to open an official location to store all verified Twin Galaxies submission footage. My stance was that we could have the largest archive of video game related footage in the world, which could be a tremendous asset to the company. I'd also already learned how several former staff members - buried in old footage in their homes - had tried to get TG to obtain the tapes but failed.

    Many of those former refs had to dump the footage and did so. I wanted to avoid that. Pete was open to the idea - at one point even saying he'd open it here with me - but he never stepped forward with it.

    I resigned in early 2011, with my last day being on February 28, 2011. Two days later, I spoke to Pete about this matter and expressed my desire for the footage in my possession to be shipped off. He said he would do so, sending a courier service my way sooner than later.

    He came back to me to state that the courier would only pick up from a business address. So I offered to take it over to a storage unit left over from a business I'd been running. I was to gather it together and come back with dimensions and weight for Pete.

    So I did. It was all carefully boxed up and put together - a small pallet's worth of stuff. Pete seemingly underestimated how much I'd have and kicked the can down the road in response to the dimensions and weight involved.

    And kept doing so.

    So now I'm paying to store this stuff. Bringing it back home was not an option; with a new baby at home we already were cramped. Pete asked me to go in and get one particular tape and I balked at the idea, reminding him of his promise.

    That turned into a thing that wasn't understood well on their end. I had no desire to dig one thing out of the pallet when the whole pallet was supposed to be gone, then mail it off out of my own pocket at that. Two TG staffers at the time came to me on this matter and I explained it to them both. I eventually and reluctantly dug out that one tape and mailed it off to TG on their dime, all while being promised that the larger issue would be handled.

    But it never was.

    During all this, several other people had left Twin Galaxies and were experiencing the same issues with the submission tapes in their possession. Many - but not all - would eventually be forced to dumpster them, unable to get a resolution from Pete.

    One old stash came by way via the Morrow Bros., former TG staffers who happened to live less than 3 miles from me. They'd also tried in vain to get Pete and/or Walter to accept their old footage... which not only included some of the earliest modern-era TG submissions but also included copies of the LIFE Magazine filiming from the 1980s and raw footage of early 2000s stuff.

    Walter Day contacted me and asked me himself if I'd go pick it up and archive it. I didn't want to, but I did. So now, not only was I still stuck paying monthly storage fees on my own TG submission archive but now I had two other people's as well.

    Eventually, TG changed hands. I brought up all the footage I wanted to be taken off my hands to two of the new owners, both of whom basically ignored me on it.

    Around that same time, Jace Hall - who I'd been producing content for at that time - called me to ask about the TG ownership change. I informed him of what I thought was valid information and noted all of the above regarding abandoned footage in the hands of a lot of people.
    It came up again a year later when Jace called me again, this time as he was obtaining TG. Again, though, nothing was done about it.

    At this point, I'd spend thousands of dollars of my own money to store tapes and footage that I DID NOT WANT and that I'd been promised would be taken off my hands. It's important to note that it was only put in that storage AFTER I was promised a courier would come pick it up.

    We went to see what else we'd stashed in there over time and realized we wanted and needed almost none of it. So that left only the TG tapes and stuff. So I pulled it out, took some photos and posted to the public that anyone who had footage they thought was in my possession should contact me if they want it back. All I was asking was that the pay for postage and, if they wanted to, to give a little more to help me cover the cost of storing them for all those years.

    Upon further examination, the VHS tapes did not handle being stored for years while being packed tightly and stacked inside a metal, non-climate controlled storage unit in Texas. Many were warped, others had moldy looking stuff inside, and I wasn't going to bring that back home.

    That's been called negligent, but may I once again point out that the only reason I even took it out there was due to Pete's promise... that the only reason it remained out there was due to Pete's broken promise and the seemingly uncaring reaction of the owners that came after him. Also worth note is that I was paying to continue to store them there even as other former staffers were throwing their tapes away.

    Seeing the damage on the tapes, they were dumpstered. Filled an entire dumpster with them, in fact. The DVDs and thumb drives in the stash seemed to fare better, though, and I brought them home. They probably made up 25 percent of the total footage.

    I once again made a public call to offer it back to any players who wanted me to send their stuff back to them. Only ONE person responded. One.

    So I looked into it. Under the abandoned property laws of this state, I was the legal owner of this stuff anyway. I mentioned that as I tried once more to GET PEOPLE TO TAKE THIS STUFF OFF OF ME, which was a mistake since people online don't understand context or proper reading comprehension I guess.

    The reason I say that is that now people were making false claims that I was planning to sell the footage online or whatever. Others were claiming that I was actually REFUSING to send it to TG... which was in stark contrast to the truth.

    My reaching out to Hall about it again - along with a request to consider reimbursement for my storing it for all that time - was met with a "legal" threat from Joel West. He claimed to be acting on Hall's behalf and claiming that I was violating the law by "refusing" to turn over that footage.

    I told him I was happy to flipping to do and that all I'd been trying to do for YEARS was get TG to take it off my hands. I was amazed how my efforts to preserve that footage AND get TG to take possession of it was somehow twisted into a claim that I was refusing to do so or whatever. He even claimed that "nobody knew I had any of it" which was a crock.

    He paid for a UPS label, I boxed it up and had it shipped to Joel. Game over.

    To this day, I still never got a dime of what I paid to store that stuff for years back. Just accusations and BS that don't match the actual story. It seems to be how people who try to do the right thing as part of TG eventually get stuck with it... the more I tried to do right by that footage, the deeper I go f'd by it.

    Meanwhile, nobody ever knocks the refs that quickly dumpstered their old stashes... nor does anyone seem to care that many of the people I noted still have / had stashes never got contacted by Hall or West for any of it. I was singled out, despite trying to give it to them for years.
    WORTH NOTE: I had no single copies of recordings by Mitchell in my possession. None were ever sent to me or given to me exclusively. I got a copy of a copy in 2009 that we gave to G4tv but they never aired it. I no longer have that.

    WORTH NOTE: The Morrow Brothers *might* have had some Mitchell stuff but I never looked in detail. Had they, it was the fault of Pete and Walter if that footage was lost, as they could have re-obtained it at any time.

    WORTH NOTE: I'm not aware of any of the footage I had being master copies of any major performances anyway. That era of TG was notorious for players padding their "world record total" by sending in obscure records on obscure tracks on obscure games. Easily 90+ percent of the damaged and dumpstered stuff was that sort of filler.

    Most of what was major league or sensitive was sent via DVD. That stuff was sent off to Joel West after this misguided threat. I do not know where it is now. Little of that footage was exclusive copy anyway; I was but one of several who helped validate those scores.

    WORTH NOTE: The only people I saw in possession of any Mitchell tapes at Big Bang 2010 were Todd Rogers and David Nelson. We could not watch the tapes that night because we had no access to a VCR. The tapes were returned to Mitchell the day of his "press conference" as far as I know, followed by the infamous Pete Bouvier request to "just say it was all legit so we can shut Billy up"

    Dwayne Richard was not present at that event.

    I'm happy to answer any follow ups from anyone who wants to reach out directly and ask any further questions. If not, please don't take this out of context, as it aims to get the facts out there - again - in the wake of incorrect statements by a handful of people who weren't even around during all this.
    Buy the Ticket... Take the Ride...

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  3. 09-18-2019, 08:07 AM
    Quote Originally Posted by RTM View Post
    RTM REPLY - one small point for sake of full transparency. To this day I maintain that I did see a 32.67 by Todd on "Barnstorming" game 1B as set during the one and only Twin Galaxies Atari 2600 "Time Deca" event - https://www.twingalaxies.com/showthr...-Final-Results

    I never saw the 32.50 or 32.04 but I firmly swear that I saw the 32.67 as submitted via AVI file for that event. I'm sorry that things turned out the way that they did with his scores based on the dispute outcome, but I know for a fact that I saw this score (time). Read the above link. Judge for yourself.
    Quote Originally Posted by francoisadt View Post
    Will the above adjustment be "counted" for not be original if such changes could produce the DK MAME finerprints?

    If I would have use an expiriment to proof outcome, from a "researcher" perspective one has to look at counter hypothesises
    to proof alternatives were not possible or possible?

    The primary research question should be driven by the hypothesis rather than the data alone or statements from people.

    A hypothesis should always explain what you expect to happen during the course of your experiment.

    Remember, a hypothesis does not have to be correct. While the hypothesis predicts what the researchers expect to see,
    the goal of the research is to determine whether this guess is right or wrong.

    So my question is, given alternative hypothesis cases David Race mention in this thread, what about to test to see the outcome of alternate hypothesises. Hypothesis testing confirms or refutes the statement that the observed findings did not occur by chance alone but rather occurred because there was a true difference in outcomes between these different expirimental setups/procedures.

    Can one derive a conclusion that the purpose of testing here for this disput was only to proof that the default setup as explained
    by here using two bit converter and not to also proof what other possible setups which include proposed changes to DK PCB (David list abive)
    that could produce MAME fingerprints? One cannot assume these cases will not produce MAME fingerprints other than proof it is not the case.

    For example: Due to the DK Jnr board was shown and not a DK board, what if there was a hidden multi kit which did enable both Dk and DK Jnr?
    This also do explain why MAME finger could be produce? Is there not mentioned by team Billy that a Dk Jnr board produce a MAME finger?
    If one do test this hypothesis then this case can also explain that new original hardware was used but a multi kit?
    If read David right I believe he adressed this. And i admit, i misjudged david. Philosophy and science are pretty different, so when i saw david (and now you) being very theoretical, then yes, you're logic is fine. However, at some point the world of "could happen", well "possible" in the philosophicla sense is a such a stress in the scientfic stance that it just doesnt could

    so yes, it is "possible" that billy used an unknown convert that somehow magically creates mame. sure, its tought to prove a negative and we cant rule it out. however, we can rule out that the converter that rob childs claimed he used does not do it. Thats why its so relevant that Rob Childs lied about that. of course, philosophically, there may be some other answer, and billy and rob could've proven billy innocent but instead inexplicably went with a lie that would only sink him and waste the time of someone on their side. Realistically though, it just doesnt make sense some unknown converter was used that could explain this, yet they chose not to tell us about it.

    Obvioulsy, when getting theoretical and philosophical theres room for opinion and just how crazy you want to go with philosphy. I can absolutley respect these outlying theoreticals, but realistically, come on, its just not realistically possible.
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  4. 09-18-2019, 08:43 AM
    In regards to PSP's posts about the tapes. My brother and I were stuck in the same situation from the earlier 200-'s and had held onto something like 3 or 4 crates worth of tapes. We had since long been 'resigned' from TG, but held onto the tapes until such time as we realized we were paying for storage without compensation. That's when we reached out to PSP, because as he said, he lived just a few miles away, and he was an official referee for TG. So we felt we had done our part by turning the tapes over to PSP. It's too bad Joel West got involved, especially acting like he represented Jace Hall (which I'm sure was a total crock).

    At any rate, the only interest part about the tapes I had from Walter sending them over was an accidental inclusion of Steve Wiebe's very first submission to TG for Donkey Kong. I remember reviewing it and contact Walter about. He was in an absolute panic when I told him about the tape, and he had me immediately ship out (cannot remember if back to him or another referee). We've discussed this before, but this is the mysterious missing tape that Steve talked about that apparently vanished after Walter had me immediately ship it off. I shutter to think that because the tape was in direct competition with Billy, that Walter was "sitting" on it. His panic reaction did raise my eyebrow though.

    As for the video footage of some fighting game tournaments, Walter wanted me to digitize them and make videos for the web site, but unfortunately the "professional" he hired had transferred them with a TON of time stamp and text overlay garbage from their dubbing equipment. It made the videos unusable, even though Walter felt like they were gold. Nothing ever came of them it sounds like.
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  5. 09-18-2019, 08:44 AM
    *early 2000's (hate that you can't correct typos here).
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  6. 09-18-2019, 08:53 AM
    Quote Originally Posted by datagod View Post
    Do early editions of MAME have the onscreen display?
    The version I use most often does (0.62, released in November 2002).

    What screen capture software was available back then?
    "Back then" as in, 2005? Plenty of screen capture software was available in 2005. Fraps for example, is screen capturing software designed specifically for capturing video game play on a PC. It was first released in 1999:


    Would it be able to create videos of comparable quality and framerate?
    That's determined by how capable the PC is. Any halfway decent PC by 2005 standards would be able to easily capture DK's native resolution and frame rate without dropping any frames, especially since no simultaneous audio capture was needed (Billy's tapes contain no audio).
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  7. 09-18-2019, 09:05 AM
    Quote Originally Posted by maxim_recoil View Post
    especially since no simultaneous audio capture was needed (Billy's tapes contain no audio).
    Which was INCREDIBLY convenient because MAME had terrible Donkey Kong sound at that time. It would have been blatantly obvious instead of having to find smoking guns in transition screens.
  8. 09-18-2019, 09:08 AM
    Which I personally would have DQ'ed Billy's tapes on the spot for no sound. It's incomplete documentation, and I wouldn't have entertained sob stories about it being "an extra hassle" to hook up. We're talking about a world record on a hotly contended game at the time. Do it right or don't do it. That's all of course if you even assume no shenanigans were involved.
  9. 09-18-2019, 09:28 AM
    Quote Originally Posted by maxim_recoil View Post
    (Billy's tapes contain no audio).
    That's an intersting note.

    Back when Dwayne Richards was still part of the TG inner circle, audio was used against Steve Wiebe. It was noted they thought he was using an 8 way joystick...from the *sounds* from the control panel. And they were trying to disqualify Steve's submission based on not using the correct 4 way stick.

    I talked to Dwayne about this. It might even be covered in the King of Con? But he (and others, not sure who all was involved in this) felt that an 8 way gave Steve an *unfair* advantage. Something about being able to be on the ladders, and direct barrels more precisely? It was somewhat fascinating. All I could think of was It seemed like people were already aware that an 8-way stick could cause the game to behave differently...yet with all the rules in place regarding DK submissions at the time (more on that shortly) I don't recall there being a stick requirement outlined in the rules.

    So some notes here.

    An 8-way stick, detected by the audio. Direct feeds were explicitly not allowed at this time per the rules. Yet both of Billy's recording in Ottumwa were direct feeds, as I believe most if not all were...without audio. Interesting.

    More on stick *rules* or lack there-of. This could affect a LOT of games. Nibbler as an example. The manual says the correct stick is the smaller diameter shaft, short stick. Yet I have never seen one with that stick. I know the machine Richie built, that Rick got his first billion on, DID have the short stick. Blew my mind. While eating with one of the games programmers in Austin TX the weekend of the MvS premiere at FantasticFest. I asked about the sticks. John Jaugilus told me, "I was bending the original sticks duriing play testing. So we switched from the small diameter shaft, short sticks...to the thicker diameter shaft, taller sticks." I asked about the manuals and the stick that was referenced. He replied, "The manuals had already been printed before the switch was made. Rock-Ola not being a huge company with unlimited funds, chose to not reprint them."

    As time goes on and older hardware gets replaced...I'm guessing at some future date, most original arcade machines won't be all that original...

    So back to the audio and Billy's recordings. Direct feeds WERE explicitly outlined as unacceptable. Sound was not mentioned in the rules that I recall. I do recall at the time thinking...TG sure kept throwing roadblock after roadblack in front of Steve, and Billy somewhat had the "home field" advantage. That Steve persevered and continued is impressive given the circumstances.

    Regarding Dwayne. Back in 2009 at MAGFest after both of our attempts ended short... we had the entire day on Sunday to talk. He was absolutely adamant that Steve did NOT possess the skill to legit surpass Billy. He also made mention of a "Library" of tapes Billy had recorded of various DK scores...all higher than the then current record listed at TG.

    Dwayne said, "Billy Mitchell always has a plan!" And laughed that whenever he gets beat, he just pulls the next tape from the library and submits it... Kinda flies against the "I never submit taped submissions" mantra now being tossed about.
    Buy the Ticket... Take the Ride...

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  10. 09-18-2019, 09:40 AM
    Quote Originally Posted by maxim_recoil View Post
    I could easily do it myself with the video editing method. I would record the screen for the entire session with screen capture software, edit out the parts that show restarts from save states, then record the edited video to a VHS tape. The only problem is, MAME has an onscreen display that comes up when you save a state and when you load from a save state. I don't know if the onscreen display can easily be disabled or not.

    As for stitching together INPs, I have no idea how to do that. That would be the ideal method though, because there's no onscreen display issue to worry about, nor do you have to find the perfect frames to make your editing cuts on if doing it via video editing.

    Without going into too much detail (for hopefully obvious reasons), I will say that it is quite easy to create a fake performance to your liking using vanilla MAME, even as far back as the earliest claimed tapes. I think when people see "stitched" or "spliced" they are imagining wholly separate gameplay segments, in video format, that are joined together after-the-fact. While I imagine that is possible, it would be much more difficult than the method I am familiar with. There would be no need for saves states (in the traditional sense) or their loading screens; no need to do any video editing whatsoever (aside from simply recording the performance onto VHS or DVD). Depending on the MAME version, you could even present the INP itself and there would be no way to detect any shenanigans (thus the need for more secure MAME versions for competitive purposes).

    The "evidence" package makes the claim that the 1.014M game occurred in May 2003. MAME 0.67 was released in April 2003 and this method works in that version. I'm not claiming Billy used MAME 0.67 and I'm not claiming he used this particular method. I'm just pointing that out to illustrate what was possible at the time.
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