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Dispute: John McAllister - Arcade - Major Havoc - Points [Marathon] - Player: Dwayne Richard - Score: 1,359,378

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  1. Dispute: John McAllister - Arcade - Major Havoc - Points [Marathon] - Player: Dwayne Richard - Score: 1,359,378

    02-12-2018, 07:36 PM
    #1
    Arcade - Major Havoc - Points [Marathon]
    Score Trackhttps://www.twingalaxies.com/scores.php?scores=3338
    RulesSettings of 8-Toggle Switch on Game PCB (SW1 at Location 13/14s)
    1-8 = OFF
    Settings of 8-Toggle Switch on Game PCB (SW2 at Location B5)
    1-8 = OFF
    Note: The above Dip Switches, are not only the FACTORY DEFAULT settings, but are also the correct Twin Galaxies Tournament Settings for this title and will provide the following settings;
    Lives: 3
    Game Difficulty: Medium
    Bonus Life at 100,000 Points
    Attract Mode Sound: Sound
    Adaptive Difficulty: Yes
    Special Rules: You may freely use warps via the Mini Pong Game.
    Player NameDwayne Richard
    Original AdjudicationN/A
    Verification MethodReferee
    Verification Date1985-06-30
    Disputed Score1,359,378 (Rank 3)
    Disputed Byredelf
    Dispute Evidence / RationaleSame as the other dispute on these 3 scores on this track. Using the hand trick is banned and each of these scores used it.
    Thanks jerky, JJT_Defender thanked this post
    Likes jerky, JJT_Defender liked this post
  2. 02-13-2018, 07:42 AM
    #2
    What exactly is the hand trick and where does it say its banned sir? Trying to figure this out :D
    Dan Desjardins
  3. 02-13-2018, 07:48 AM
    #3
    Now that I watched it I see what you are saying. That hand trick is a glitch which allows you to play level 13 over and over. This is a glitch and also leeching so it was banned and in my opinion they need to go if they used that.
    Dan Desjardins
  4. Examples

    02-13-2018, 08:50 AM
    #4
    TG please fix broken link problem. Other than YT links everything will not work unless you cut and paste :(

    ::: Hand Trick Demonstration :::
    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Ym8I4Bb0lvs

    ::: INP Playback Example WolfMAME .152 :::
    replay.marpirc.net/r/mhavoc2
    eplay.marpirc.net/inp/f/2/9/jky_mhavoc2_1494078_wolf152.zip
    Thanks JJT_Defender, redelf thanked this post
    Likes JJT_Defender liked this post
  5. TG message editor is a buggy mess :(

    02-13-2018, 08:53 AM
    #5

    Thanks for starting this...and now for some evidence.

    (*** sorry about the links...they all work if you cut and paste them but the TG editor is not having it today ;( *** )

    Glad this is finally being brought up and thanks for doing so John.

    (i) Here's what I know about this issue with the first two scores from one of many posts by Rick Carter (Permafrostrick) on this topic...

    #1 - 1,940,078 Ettore Ciaffi 1985-06-28 Referee [Undisputed]
    #2 - 1,447,078 Bob Haas 1985-09-09 Referee [Undisputed]



    ::: Exhibit A :::
    Re: ZOOKEEPER...a couple of questions

    Permafrostrick
    Reply #586 on: February 27, 2012, 12:06:27 PM »
    However, remember for the highest scores we got we did the hand trick to repeat level 13 many many times until we had enough men we thought we could get through the loop where it goes back to level 13.

    On modern TG settings, the hand trick is not allowed as the rom set chosen had that fixed so can't do that trick...yet all the top 2-3 scores were using that trick. You remember how tough a few of those levels beyond 13 were...can't do them without losing at least a couple men...so you maybe get 1 full loop done and a few more levels if you don't use hand trick....so maybe around 1.5 million tops if I am remembering my math correctly.

    the top of 2+ million and X's 1.8 million were using the hand trick. Not taking anything away from that cuz it still is great to loop level 13 that many times...but technically not allowed in modern times. They need to split the track to allow both.

    www.classicarcadegaming.com/forums/index.php/topic,846.msg57133.html#msg57133


    ::: Exhibit B :::
    Funspot is rockin' on day 1
    Permafrostrick
    06-02-2008, 06:10 AM
    #20
    Major Havoc....top 2-3 scores played using the hand trick which is nowadays banned by TG. Atari was aware of the hand trick/flaw in the code and made a new rom set revision that fixed it so that trick was no longer possible.

    The top scores used the hand trick cuz I witnessed 2 of them. The other I didn't witness but is a score that isn't possible playing it without the trick.

    The trick allows you to hit a hand that reaches over and turns off the reactor...but you have time to get OUT and in the ship...and the reactor is shut off as you hop in the ship...allowing you to play level 13 over and over and over again...forever. Level 13 is actually where you can get proficient enough to build up men and get through the level a handful(pun intended) of times without dying).
    www.twingalaxies.com/showthread.php/119649-Funspot-is-rockin-on-day-1?p=637019&viewfull=1#post637019


    ::: Exhibit C :::
    Permafrostrick
    Re: Billy Mitchells 1999 Pac Man acheivement
    Reply #24 on: November 17, 2007, 01:54:02 PM

    Major Havoc....I have pointed out to them many times...with witnessing 2 of the top scores as proof...other score is obvious enough...that the rom set with the hand trick to replay level 13 over and over forever was used. A later revision of the rom set fixed the bug so you can't do it. Also, looping on 1 level forever versus progressing the game to the next level goes against TG policy...yet these scores remain.

    //www.classicarcadegaming.com/forums/index.php/topic,345.msg2330.html#msg2330


    ::: Exhibit D :::
    Unbelievable!!! WR DVD on EBAY!

    Permafrostrick
    11-26-2004, 01:18 PM
    #118
    Major Havoc...I have tried to DQ the current arcade scores cuz I know for a FACT they were done using set 2 which has a flaw where you can play level 13 over and over again...forever. I could marathon the game scoring millions if I wanted to playing that rom set.

    set 3 of the rom set for Major Havoc, FIXED the code flaw that allowed the above. Anyone playing Major Havoc using set 3 will not be able to touch the set 2 scores.

    ...yet those scores remain. I think they even would be in violation of the current TG leeching rules..as they aren't trying to advance the game...but just replay level 13 forever.

    www.twingalaxies.com/showthread.php/112311-Unbelievable!!!-WR-DVD-on-EBAY!?p=580071&viewfull=1#post580071


    (ii) Who is Rick Carter (Permafrostrick)?
    www.twingalaxies.com/scores.php?player=32603
    www.classicarcadegaming.com/forums/index.php?topic=5623.0
    [IMG]//www.twingalaxies.com/attachment.php?attachmentid=49886&d=1518303708[/IMG]



    (iii) I also got to speak with Dwanye Richard via PMs here on Twin Galaxies about his score and what he knew about the other two above him. I asked him about his third place score and if he knew anything about the top 2 especially #1...

    #3 - 1,359,378 Dwayne Richard 1985-06-30 Referee [Undisputed]


    ::: Exhibit E :::

    Re: Major Havoc WR and The Home World is Actually Near (Finally)

    That score is repeating level 13 rick carter saw the guy do it and has pointed that out to the score board. I have never seen anyone get past level 20. i know a tempest guy i forgot his name who could do it on arcade and tim szcerby on mame recently. the walls go yellow.

    I was stuck on level 17 and couldnt get by it. Thats where my score topped off. major havoc is an awesome game. i will have to come out to the extreme if you are unveiling it if i can.
    dwayne



    (iv) For reference you can see what an average score should be around level 17 from this point in my recent playback videos (about 1.1 million points). So his game had about 250,000 points or so earned via the hand trick on Level 13 it would seem :

    ::: Exhibit F :::
    https://youtu.be/Yo6HFflpUck?t=9m58s


    (v) Dwayne followed up with me in another PM supporting this dispute since he never understood why TG accepted these scores in the first place...

    ::: Exhibit G:::
    The score was in the book was intentionally played to build up men to try to get past a higher level i was stuck on so it should have been rejected. I knew the next years score was done like according to rick carter. He saw the guy play

    So i have no problem with that score removed.



    (vi) Who is Dwayne Richard?
    //www.twingalaxies.com/scores.php?player=12716



    ::: Summary :::

    Rick Carter claims to have witnessed the first two scores using the hand trick which normally would not be allowed by Twin Galaxies since it is considered leeching even if they later played on to higher levels. He is a well known expert gamer. He even appears to have tried to get them all DQ'd and was ignored by TG it seems in the past.

    I have tried to reach Rick Carter but can only leave PMs for him on CAGDC. If anyone knows how to contact him please PM me his info and or direct him here to help support his statements about these scores.

    Dwayne Richard, another expert gamer and the #3 WR holder, supports Rick Carter's statements about the #1 and #2 scores using the hand trick. He also freely admits he used the same bug for his score which was from practice sessions that ended up being his logged score in the tournament. Long story short his recollection is that TG entered his score on Major Havoc right from the high score screen without contacting him to ask any questions about it (Video Masters). Hopefully Dwayne can chime in with more details since he knows about this dispute that he himself supports.

    All three tops scores used the same methods either partially or in full for their final scores so they should be removed or a note about the specifics of this track should be made clear by Twin Galaxies finally (i.e. set on Rev 2 machines in a tournament that allowed a level repeating trick that would not usually allowed under their own leeching rules).

    I hope this helps clarify these older scores. I have already started a new track that forbids using the Level 13 hand trick or anything like it (Arcade) :
    https://www.twingalaxies.com/major-h.../1?ref=fbshare
    Thanks redelf, Tessman, HugDD thanked this post
  6. 02-13-2018, 08:58 AM
    #6
    I honestly think the hand trick is nothing but leeching and shouldnt be allowed at all so "splitting" the tracks makes no sense to me. The scores should be removed if they used the hand trick leech.

    Dan

    Quote Originally Posted by jerky View Post

    Thanks for starting this...and now for some evidence.

    (*** sorry about the links...they all work if you cut and paste them but the TG editor is not having it today ;( *** )

    Glad this is finally being brought up and thanks for doing so John.

    (i) Here's what I know about this issue with the first two scores from one of many posts by Rick Carter (Permafrostrick) on this topic...

    #1 - 1,940,078 Ettore Ciaffi 1985-06-28 Referee [Undisputed]
    #2 - 1,447,078 Bob Haas 1985-09-09 Referee [Undisputed]



    ::: Exhibit A :::
    Re: ZOOKEEPER...a couple of questions

    Permafrostrick
    Reply #586 on: February 27, 2012, 12:06:27 PM »
    However, remember for the highest scores we got we did the hand trick to repeat level 13 many many times until we had enough men we thought we could get through the loop where it goes back to level 13.

    On modern TG settings, the hand trick is not allowed as the rom set chosen had that fixed so can't do that trick...yet all the top 2-3 scores were using that trick. You remember how tough a few of those levels beyond 13 were...can't do them without losing at least a couple men...so you maybe get 1 full loop done and a few more levels if you don't use hand trick....so maybe around 1.5 million tops if I am remembering my math correctly.

    the top of 2+ million and X's 1.8 million were using the hand trick. Not taking anything away from that cuz it still is great to loop level 13 that many times...but technically not allowed in modern times. They need to split the track to allow both.

    www.classicarcadegaming.com/forums/index.php/topic,846.msg57133.html#msg57133


    ::: Exhibit B :::
    Funspot is rockin' on day 1
    Permafrostrick
    06-02-2008, 06:10 AM
    #20
    Major Havoc....top 2-3 scores played using the hand trick which is nowadays banned by TG. Atari was aware of the hand trick/flaw in the code and made a new rom set revision that fixed it so that trick was no longer possible.

    The top scores used the hand trick cuz I witnessed 2 of them. The other I didn't witness but is a score that isn't possible playing it without the trick.

    The trick allows you to hit a hand that reaches over and turns off the reactor...but you have time to get OUT and in the ship...and the reactor is shut off as you hop in the ship...allowing you to play level 13 over and over and over again...forever. Level 13 is actually where you can get proficient enough to build up men and get through the level a handful(pun intended) of times without dying).
    www.twingalaxies.com/showthread.php/119649-Funspot-is-rockin-on-day-1?p=637019&viewfull=1#post637019


    ::: Exhibit C :::
    Permafrostrick
    Re: Billy Mitchells 1999 Pac Man acheivement
    Reply #24 on: November 17, 2007, 01:54:02 PM

    Major Havoc....I have pointed out to them many times...with witnessing 2 of the top scores as proof...other score is obvious enough...that the rom set with the hand trick to replay level 13 over and over forever was used. A later revision of the rom set fixed the bug so you can't do it. Also, looping on 1 level forever versus progressing the game to the next level goes against TG policy...yet these scores remain.

    //www.classicarcadegaming.com/forums/index.php/topic,345.msg2330.html#msg2330


    ::: Exhibit D :::
    Unbelievable!!! WR DVD on EBAY!

    Permafrostrick
    11-26-2004, 01:18 PM
    #118
    Major Havoc...I have tried to DQ the current arcade scores cuz I know for a FACT they were done using set 2 which has a flaw where you can play level 13 over and over again...forever. I could marathon the game scoring millions if I wanted to playing that rom set.

    set 3 of the rom set for Major Havoc, FIXED the code flaw that allowed the above. Anyone playing Major Havoc using set 3 will not be able to touch the set 2 scores.

    ...yet those scores remain. I think they even would be in violation of the current TG leeching rules..as they aren't trying to advance the game...but just replay level 13 forever.

    www.twingalaxies.com/showthread.php/112311-Unbelievable!!!-WR-DVD-on-EBAY!?p=580071&viewfull=1#post580071


    (ii) Who is Rick Carter (Permafrostrick)?
    www.twingalaxies.com/scores.php?player=32603
    www.classicarcadegaming.com/forums/index.php?topic=5623.0
    [IMG]//www.twingalaxies.com/attachment.php?attachmentid=49886&d=1518303708[/IMG]



    (iii) I also got to speak with Dwanye Richard via PMs here on Twin Galaxies about his score and what he knew about the other two above him. I asked him about his third place score and if he knew anything about the top 2 especially #1...

    #3 - 1,359,378 Dwayne Richard 1985-06-30 Referee [Undisputed]


    ::: Exhibit E :::

    Re: Major Havoc WR and The Home World is Actually Near (Finally)

    That score is repeating level 13 rick carter saw the guy do it and has pointed that out to the score board. I have never seen anyone get past level 20. i know a tempest guy i forgot his name who could do it on arcade and tim szcerby on mame recently. the walls go yellow.

    I was stuck on level 17 and couldnt get by it. Thats where my score topped off. major havoc is an awesome game. i will have to come out to the extreme if you are unveiling it if i can.
    dwayne



    (iv) For reference you can see what an average score should be around level 17 from this point in my recent playback videos (about 1.1 million points). So his game had about 250,000 points or so earned via the hand trick on Level 13 it would seem :

    ::: Exhibit F :::
    https://youtu.be/Yo6HFflpUck?t=9m58s


    (v) Dwayne followed up with me in another PM supporting this dispute since he never understood why TG accepted these scores in the first place...

    ::: Exhibit G:::
    The score was in the book was intentionally played to build up men to try to get past a higher level i was stuck on so it should have been rejected. I knew the next years score was done like according to rick carter. He saw the guy play

    So i have no problem with that score removed.



    (vi) Who is Dwayne Richard?
    //www.twingalaxies.com/scores.php?player=12716



    ::: Summary :::

    Rick Carter claims to have witnessed the first two scores using the hand trick which normally would not be allowed by Twin Galaxies since it is considered leeching even if they later played on to higher levels. He is a well known expert gamer. He even appears to have tried to get them all DQ'd and was ignored by TG it seems in the past.

    I have tried to reach Rick Carter but can only leave PMs for him on CAGDC. If anyone knows how to contact him please PM me his info and or direct him here to help support his statements about these scores.

    Dwayne Richard, another expert gamer and the #3 WR holder, supports Rick Carter's statements about the #1 and #2 scores using the hand trick. He also freely admits he used the same bug for his score which was from practice sessions that ended up being his logged score in the tournament. Long story short his recollection is that TG entered his score on Major Havoc right from the high score screen without contacting him to ask any questions about it (Video Masters). Hopefully Dwayne can chime in with more details since he knows about this dispute that he himself supports.

    All three tops scores used the same methods either partially or in full for their final scores so they should be removed or a note about the specifics of this track should be made clear by Twin Galaxies finally (i.e. set on Rev 2 machines in a tournament that allowed a level repeating trick that would not usually allowed under their own leeching rules).

    I hope this helps clarify these older scores. I have already started a new track that forbids using the Level 13 hand trick or anything like it (Arcade) :
    https://www.twingalaxies.com/major-h.../1?ref=fbshare
    Dan Desjardins
  7. 02-13-2018, 09:17 AM
    #7
    I voting Yes to the Dispute I have Seen this Before. Agreed

    Enjoyed the Video on the Major Havoc Hand Trick thanks for Providing It David Jury
    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Ym8I4Bb0lvs
    JJT JohnnyLightning World #1 Racer on the Arcade Game Fast & Furious Super Cars 1,741 Wins 43 Cities
  8. 02-13-2018, 11:12 AM
    #8
    Dwayne told me about this dispute and how the score was recorded without his knowledge. He said he has no problem with it being taken down since it was never intended to be submitted in the first place.

    Hec
    If you need me, I'll be on the 7th floor.
    Thanks redelf, jerky, HugDD thanked this post
  9. Yesterday, 11:52 AM
    #9
    Rules are rules, so voting yes!
    Lauren R. Tyler
    Eternal Champion of Ragol
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