Dispute: Marco Sandoval - Atari Jaguar - The Space Marine - Default settings - Player: Justin Morland - Score: 13,343,567,930

Is this a valid dispute?

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  1. Dispute: Marco Sandoval - Atari Jaguar - The Space Marine - Default settings - Player: Justin Morland - Score: 13,343,567,930

    02-26-2018, 02:31 PM
    Atari Jaguar - The Space Marine - Default settings
    Score Track
    https://www.twingalaxies.com/scores.php?scores=2556
    Rules
    Default Settings
    Player Name
    Justin Morland
    Original Adjudication
    N/A
    Verification Method
    Referee
    Verification Date
    2004-06-11
    Disputed Score
    13,343,567,930 (Rank 1)
    Disputed By
    Marco1019
    Dispute Evidence / Rationale
    I am opening this dispute on behalf of @GibGirl . I understand that my name will be on the record.

    A brief summary:

    · This game, as listed, does not exist
    · This score is one of many Atari Jaguar scores in the Twin Galaxies database that was not verified by any video, much less by a referee
    · This score could not have been realistically achieved due to multiple reasons
    @GibGirl will present her findings in the thread, after which I will contribute some findings of my own.
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  2. 02-26-2018, 02:40 PM
    A big thanks to @Marco1019 for opening this dispute on my behalf.

    Here are the reasons I'm disputing this score.

    First, the game as listed does not exist. It should be just a track for Aliens Vs. Predator instead, but being entered as a non-existent game instead of properly being made a track under AvP says something about the attention paid to the scores when they were added into the database.


    Second, the majority of Atari Jaguar scores current in the database were pulled in from another site. They are not indicated as such, being listed as verified by "referee", instead of as "affiliate". Every score with a date of 2004-06-11 is part of this batch of scores.


    The source of these scores can be found in the Internet Archive at https://goo.gl/wUb5X8 (URL shortener used because TG's link parsing keeps breaking the actual link) . From looking over this page, there does not appear to be any verification - scores are submitted via a form at the bottom of the page. This gives reason to think that this entire batch of scores is questionable.


    Onto the score itself. It is 10,000 times higher than the second place score under it, or the single TGSAP verified score listed under the correct game. There are also playthroughs shown on YouTube that are in the few million point score range.


    Actual gameplay viewed via YouTube will show the scoring on the game is fairly simple. Killing an Alien earns 10,000 points. Shooting an alien egg is 300. Facehuggers are 900. A barrel is 100. Predators are 50,000, but rare. It does not appear that killing the alien queen is worth any points. Based on this information, it would require killing over 1.3 MILLION aliens to reach the score listed, or over 250k predators. These point values can be easily confirmed by watching the TGSAP approved submission here at https://www.twingalaxies.com/showthread.php/155970.

    You can also compare these point values against those listed in the game manual at https://atariage.com/manual_page.php...29&maxPages=33. Those scores are for the Predator, but the marine point values as seen in the game are identical to those for the Predator when using either the Wrist Blades or Combi-Stick.


    For the Space Marine, points only come in multiples of 100s. This would not only be another piece of evidence this score is fake, but also the #2 score under it. If you check videos on YouTube or screenshots across the web, you'll never see a score for the marine that does not end with 00. However, this submitted score ends in "30", which is not possible.



    Also, both enemies and ammunition have fixed amounts per play session. Once killed/picked up, they are not replenished. This means there is a maximum score that can be earned without saving and reloading. There are 7 levels of the map - 5 station levels, the alien ship, and the predator ship. Maps show that levels are approximately 40x40, or smaller in some cases (such as the predator ship). Plus 8 air duct maps, each with 100-200 grid squares that are used. That means there are about 12,000 maximum spawn locations for enemies. If there was a predator spawned in every single square in every single level, and the player had infinite ammo and health to deal with it, that's still only 560,000,000 points. So even if if the time required didn't give this away as fake, such a score would require many saves and reloads - aka, "leeching".


    I did investigate playing via emulator to personally verify points and such, but the only ROM I have found available appears to be a non-final version, with only a "0123456789" placeholder for the marine score. Further attempts to find an alternate version were not successful.


    Finally, I would suggest that this dispute will not only invalidate the score in question, but because it demonstrates the lack of verification for any of the Atari Jaguar scores in the entire batch that was imported from the external web site, that ALL Jaguar scores with a date of 2004-06-11 be seen as untrustworthy and removed from Twin Galaxies.
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  3. 02-27-2018, 01:38 PM
    Voting yes!
  4. 03-02-2018, 05:43 AM
    It would be great to get some insight from any former refs who remember this. @RTM @Barthax @RaGe
    Dave Hawksett
    Head Custodian
    www.TwinGalaxies.com
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  5. 03-02-2018, 05:50 AM
    This definitely seems suspect but it would be nice to have anyone actually play the correct game and confirm some things.
  6. 03-02-2018, 09:26 AM
    This is before my time. Along with RTM, @goochman might be able to give a pointer here. :)
    Lots of 1sts to be surpassed: what are you waiting for? Play the game, submit the score...
  7. 03-02-2018, 10:33 AM
    Quote Originally Posted by Barthax View Post
    This is before my time. Along with RTM, @goochman might be able to give a pointer here. :)
    Ditto that.

    Multiples of 100 aside, the score does seem way out here, where it'd have to be a leech fest to reach it.
  8. 03-02-2018, 10:49 AM
    Quote Originally Posted by RaGe View Post
    Ditto that.

    Multiples of 100 aside, the score does seem way out here, where it'd have to be a leech fest to reach it.
    To put the "leech fest" part in perspective, if there was a location in the game that spawns one Predator a second (which there's not), and the player had infinite health and ammo and could kill them as fast as they spawn, that would still take over 72 hours to reach the score here.

    He hasn't posted it, but when @Marco1019 and I were talking through this dispute to prepare for the post, he did some calculations. Based on the scoring rate of the videos of this game that are available on the net to view, it would take someone starting a game on January 1st, and playing straight through late November - WITHOUT sleeping. And while it's safe to assume that people can find ways to earn points orders of magnitudes faster, that's still a ridiculous amount for a game that's as slow paced and with the scoring available as this one.
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  9. 03-02-2018, 11:08 AM
    Quote Originally Posted by GibGirl View Post
    To put the "leech fest" part in perspective, if there was a location in the game that spawns one Predator a second (which there's not), and the player had infinite health and ammo and could kill them as fast as they spawn, that would still take over 72 hours to reach the score here.

    He hasn't posted it, but when @Marco1019 and I were talking through this dispute to prepare for the post, he did some calculations. Based on the scoring rate of the videos of this game that are available on the net to view, it would take someone starting a game on January 1st, and playing straight through late November - WITHOUT sleeping. And while it's safe to assume that people can find ways to earn points orders of magnitudes faster, that's still a ridiculous amount for a game that's as slow paced and with the scoring available as this one.
    Nice calculations. That's a hell of a perspective. You guys probably already checked, but there aren't any points codes out there either (which would be cheating anyway), just character enhancement ones. This one dwarfs my previous record-holder for "Total BS Score" by far, Intellivision TRON (score is gone now).
  10. 03-02-2018, 11:21 AM
    I found a discussion on this at the Atari Age site...

    http://atariage.com/forums/topic/120...-space-marine/

    The most interesting thing over here at TG is...If the game does not exist, then why does this track, this score, and other scores therefore even exist ?
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