Dispute: william rosa - Arcade - Berzerk - Fast Bullets - Random Play (No Pattern Allowed) - Player: Joel West - Score: 76,850

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  1. Dispute: william rosa - Arcade - Berzerk - Fast Bullets - Random Play (No Pattern Allowed) - Player: Joel West - Score: 76,850

    06-06-2018, 08:04 AM
    Arcade - Berzerk - Fast Bullets - Random Play (No Pattern Allowed)
    Score Track
    https://www.twingalaxies.com/scores.php?scores=659
    Rules
    ZPU Switch Bank F2:
    1-2 = OFF
    3-6 = OFF/UNUSED
    7-8 = ON
    ZPU Switch Bank F3:
    9-10 = OFF
    11-14 = OFF/UNUSED
    15-16 = OFF
    ZPU Switch Bank F4:
    17-20 = OFF
    21-24 = OFF/UNUSED
    ZPU Switch Bank F5:
    25-28 = OFF
    29-32 = OFF/UNUSED
    ZPU Switch Bank F6:
    33-36 = OFF
    37-40 = OFF/UNUSED

    Note: The above Dip Switches, are not only the FACTORY DEFAULT settings, but are also the correct Twin Galaxies Tournament Settings for this title and will provide the following settings;
    Extra Life @ 5,000 & 10,000

    Special Rules:
    1. This variation is for a cabinet that has the RC-31 Logic Program installed. This is what makes the bullets fast. If there is no RC-31 Logic Program installed, all scores on this machine will be logged under the Slow Bullets variation.
    2. This section is for RANDOM METHOD of play where no pattern is used even once during a game to gain advanced knowledge of upcoming rooms during any one LIFE. Any loop, box or pattern performed where rooms repeat even once during any one LIFE will classify play under the PATTERN METHOD of play.
    3. A pattern exists whether the ?loop? is elaborate and takes many minutes to complete or if a loop occurs just once during any one LIFE where all four exits are used to make rooms repeat even once FOREKNOWLEDGE of one loop and its rooms therein ? OR ? FOREKNOWLEDGE of hours of loops and its rooms therein constitute the definition of a PATTERN. In random play rooms can repeat, rarely, but NEVER during the same LIFE and never will multiple rooms repeat in the same order where a PATTERN is not being used.
    Player Name
    Joel West
    Original Adjudication
    N/A
    Verification Method
    Referee
    Verification Date
    1982-08-29
    Disputed Score
    76,850 (Rank 2)
    Disputed By
    Snowflake
    Dispute Evidence / Rationale
    This score and other were verified under the pattern allowed rules. That's not to say this score used a pattern, but rather at submission time it was submitted to the track that allowed for both patterns and no patterns, the merged track, the original track. Somehow, when the new no pattern allowed track (this track) was created, all historic scores performed under pattern allowed rules were moved here. You can see that was never the intention based on the following links. I'll mention some highlights on the links in the comments that follow.

    http://www.classicarcadegaming.com/f...p?topic=4649.0

    https://www.twingalaxies.com/showthr...ay-Please-Vote

    Also, these links were just enough to get the challenge rolling. expect more packets to follow :)
    Thanks datagod thanked this post
    Likes datagod liked this post
  2. 06-06-2018, 08:08 AM
    As you can see in TG link, the poll Joel put up was for a new track. And who can argue with multiple tracks? Using a pattern or not can indeed make a difference. You can also see that originally (so for scores as old as this one) the "no pattern rule" didnt exist yet. People's agreement were based on the idea of a new track being created. Both @RTM and @Timmel as well as others raised concerns about moving old scores from the old track to this new track, yet, despite all the well placed concerns thats what happened.

    The cag link heavily references the TG link but it appears some of the TG comments have since gone missing. The quotes in there also emphasize the point that historic scores were not intended to be moved to this new track.
  3. 06-06-2018, 08:57 AM
    some points about berzerk, and i'm hardly an expert, but thats just it, things even non-experts can figure out pretty quickly factor in here.

    If you take too long evil otto will come bouncing after you. He enters through the same door you entered. so if you try to escape him by going up (or down) his bounce will give him an advantage if you escape him going left (or right) his bounce is irrelevant. The traditional way is in fact to just run left to right (or right to left) the whole time unless of course the occasional problem zone makes you break from that pattern (which ironically listed as 'random' play).

    You can not leave through the door you entered, however you can create a loop and come back. The speculation is that none of the old scores knew how to do that and so we can be sure none of them employed that technique. Now it would be equally speculative of me to say people could've known. But note the rules, as currently written forbid even doing a single loop once on accident. To claim that none of the old scores ever accidentally looped even once is highly speculative which is just one more reason why moving the old scores to this new track is problematic. They should be put back on the old track which they were set on
  4. 06-06-2018, 09:13 AM
    From what I understand, before the creation of the new track, all scores were allowed to use patterns. Whether the pattern is a simple up right down left, or a more complex 21 room "box", they were all allowed on the existing track. The new track created should have specified "no pattern allowed" -- a novelty track really -- and new scores added as they were achieved.

    Wagner's score for example was achieved and submitted under the original track which at the time allowed for patterns.

    When the new novelty track was created, the old scores should NOT have been moved over. There is no way to tell if they used patterns or not, and even if they did it was allowed. I would be upset if somebody took my historical score and moved it to a new novelty track.
    RTM was right. D'ohFake and Markrappenhammer are troublemakers.
    Creator of Arcade Retro Clock


  5. 11-15-2018, 07:35 PM
    Quote Originally Posted by datagod View Post
    When the new novelty track was created, the old scores should NOT have been moved over. There is no way to tell if they used patterns or not, and even if they did it was allowed. I would be upset if somebody took my historical score and moved it to a new novelty track.
    Exactly! That was my point to Joel West when he tried to persuade me when I was the fresh new Head ref of TG for a mere 26-28 days. I didn't grant the new tracks on that point, pointed out above.
  6. 11-17-2018, 09:38 AM
    I had these on my wall, but I think they are better off being here.

    [COLOR=#DDDDDD !important]This all occurred under a previous administration and caused much heartache and anger in the community. One person spearheaded this campain, and it was clearly to put a new contender out of competition. He blew their old scores out of the water. Nobody knows if the others used patterns or not. Sure one of them claims to be pure, but I know for a fact he was himself studying the map trying to find an elaborate long pattern himself (11 rooms or more). I know because he gave me the map and asked me to help.[/COLOR]
    [COLOR=#DDDDDD !important]
    [/COLOR]
    [COLOR=#DDDDDD !important]I didn't understand the ramifications at the time.[/COLOR]
    [COLOR=#DDDDDD !important]I myself have made "hard" tracks for games (1943 for example) where you cannot use special codes to grant powerups during the start of each level. The game has them built in, they are part of the game. But some people say they are not to be used, while others say they are ok. One person in the top 5 spot admitted they used the powerups.[/COLOR]
    [COLOR=#DDDDDD !important]My new track only has a few scores, but it says no powerups. That is how it should be done. Make a new track and submit it it. Don't make a new track then throw your competitor's score there while leaving all the questionable ones on the original track.[/COLOR]
    [COLOR=#DDDDDD !important]Please take a look at this matter. Thank you.[/COLOR]
    RTM was right. D'ohFake and Markrappenhammer are troublemakers.
    Creator of Arcade Retro Clock


  7. 11-17-2018, 09:39 AM
    This all occurred under a previous administration and caused much heartache and anger in the community. One person spearheaded this campain, and it was clearly to put a new contender out of competition. He blew their old scores out of the water. Nobody knows if the others used patterns or not. Sure one of them claims to be pure, but I know for a fact he was himself studying the map trying to find an elaborate long pattern himself (11 rooms or more). I know because he gave me the map and asked me to help.






    I didn't understand the ramifications at the time.


    I myself have made "hard" tracks for games (1943 for example) where you cannot use special codes to grant powerups during the start of each level. The game has them built in, they are part of the game. But some people say they are not to be used, while others say they are ok. One person in the top 5 spot admitted they used the powerups.


    My new track only has a few scores, but it says no powerups. That is how it should be done. Make a new track and submit it it. Don't make a new track then throw your competitor's score there while leaving all the questionable ones on the original track.


    Please take a look at this matter. Thank you.
    RTM was right. D'ohFake and Markrappenhammer are troublemakers.
    Creator of Arcade Retro Clock


  8. 11-17-2018, 09:41 AM
    From what I understand, Berzerk has a maze of 1024 rooms (my estimate, actual number may vary). Each life you start off in another part of the maze. The maze is randomized based on a seed value. The glory days of early programming meant the same seed value would be used during every boot up of the game, or you could reboot until a particular seed is reached.


    So there you are, in a maze of robots meant to kill you. You run through a door too early, the robots call you chicken. Clearly that is NOT exploiting the game programming, as the programmer was aware that would happen. Running through several rooms to repeat back on the first one is not an exploit. You can do that in a real maze of rooms. An exploit would be hiding in a corner and pressing diagonal, making yourself invisible to the robots (not a real part of Berzerk, just giving an example).


    Steve Wagner's tactic was to play the game and run through the maze in a way that maximized his chance of survival. Man v.s. Machine. Machine wins in the end.


    Ever play Pacman? Patterns.
    Ever play Make Trax? Patterns.
    Ever play Nibbler? Patterns!




    The only time patterns are not allowed is when you dethrone an old champion.
    RTM was right. D'ohFake and Markrappenhammer are troublemakers.
    Creator of Arcade Retro Clock


    Likes timmell liked this post
  9. 11-17-2019, 07:30 AM
    Any thing that was added or edited to the TG database during the Jordan/ Richie era should examined. As I bet there was mostly "easy" verifications.
  10. 11-21-2019, 12:41 PM
    Quote Originally Posted by rules
    2. This section is for RANDOM METHOD of play where no pattern is used even once during a game to gain advanced knowledge of upcoming rooms during any one LIFE. Any loop, box or pattern performed where rooms repeat even once during any one LIFE will classify play under the PATTERN METHOD of play.


    Quote Originally Posted by datagod View Post
    From what I understand, Berzerk has a maze of 1024 rooms (my estimate, actual number may vary). Each life you start off in another part of the maze.
    There is a finite number of rooms which, however mapped, loop: off the left appears on the right, off the right appears on the left, up appears at the bottom & down appears at the top. For any extended play on a single life, the player cannot avoid a loop. In my understanding, therefore, there is a finite limit to such an attempt until a loop inevitably occurs.
    I'd rather be last on every game than throw my time away chasing only one score.
    Likes Snowflake liked this post
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