Dispute: Matthew Felix - SNES / SFC - Donkey Kong Country - NTSC - Minimalist Speed Run (no saves) - Player: Carlos Krueger - Score: 28:00.0

Is this a valid dispute?

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  1. Dispute: Matthew Felix - SNES / SFC - Donkey Kong Country - NTSC - Minimalist Speed Run (no saves) - Player: Carlos Krueger - Score: 28:00.0

    01-20-2019, 09:45 PM
    SNES / SFC - Donkey Kong Country - NTSC - Minimalist Speed Run (no saves)
    Score Track
    https://www.twingalaxies.com/scores.php?scores=14452
    Rules
    Must Start from a NEW Save file! 5 lives, No life limit [Codes & Continues are NOT allowed!]
    Special Rules: The game's internal clock will be used to determine your time. No saves/quits permitted. Usage of Start / Select to exit a completed stage IS allowed. NO glitches may be used, including (but NOT limited to) entering a stage with an animal friend from another level and "warping" from one stage to another (warps from within a stage to another place in the SAME stage are ok). Bonus Stages are entirely optional as you only need to complete every stage. You MUST Complete the game or your record/attempt WILL be disqualified!
    Player Name
    Carlos Krueger
    Original Adjudication
    N/A
    Verification Method
    Video
    Verification Date
    2001-08-25
    Disputed Score
    28:00.0 (Rank 1)
    Disputed By
    starcrytas
    Dispute Evidence / Rationale
    This time was originally challenged by @Tompa many years back, but nothing seems to have been done.

    https://www.twingalaxies.com/showthr...l=1#post669123

    While a :28 in game time speedrun is possible, it would break the track's rule of "NO glitches may be used"


    From just doing some quick searches, here are some speedruns I found for comparison.

    No Major Glitches bans Wrong Warps and other glitches that allow to skip through autoscroller parts of levels.

    No Major Glitches - 34:45
    https://www.speedrun.com/dkc/run/zx43jkqy

    Here are two :28 in game time speedruns to show what kind of gameplay is needed to tie this time. The runs use glitches that TG would ban.


    :28 IGT (33:38 Real Time) by Garrison



    :28 IGT (32:47 Real Time) by Eazinn
    https://www.twitch.tv/videos/53520226


    In order to beat the current time, here a :27 in game time speedrun to show what kind of gameplay is needed
    :27 IGT (32:40 Real Time) by Eazinn
    https://www.twitch.tv/videos/55625740


    This time should be removed if it is not a legitimate speedrun under Twin Galaxies rules or corrected if it is a typo.
    Thanks Snowflake thanked this post
  2. 01-21-2019, 09:22 AM
    I'm ready to answer any questions people might have about this game for the dispute.

    In the topic refered to, I posted a Tool-Assisted Speedrun that doesn't use any glitches. While there are a few faster non-glitch strategies, it is in no way possible to save the 2½ minutes required to reach a time of 00:28.

    The most logical conclusion for this run is that it either used the warp on the map screen that takes you from W1 to W3. Could also have been a typo, that the time should have been 00:38 instead.

    Either the case: This time is simply impossible.
    Thanks starcrytas, Pixe Sukola thanked this post
    Likes TJ Johnsen liked this post
  3. 11-22-2019, 07:59 PM
    For reference, here's some additional background from the TG archives following up on Tompa's post -

    On June 15, 2009, there was an announcement of Kevin LaLonde’s WR submissions. The post from Rdrunner noted at the outset “a special ‘thank you’ [to Lalonde] for being the first to submit speed runs on all 3 Donkey Kong Country games! I’ve been waiting years for times to appear from those games!” The post recorded an inaugural time for Donkey Kong Country - Minimalist Speed Run at 42:00. Kamikaze (Kevin) later remarks “I’ve always wondered why nobody has done them [the DK games], so I figured I would.”


    https://www.twingalaxies.com/showthr...nde-Collection


    Then roughly 8 days later, Tompa posts a thread about the DKC times, and we learn that between the announcement of Lalonde’s DKC times and Tompa’s post that TG had apparently uncovered or discovered an existing time that wasn’t entered into the DKC Minimalist track - Krueger’s time of 28:00


    https://www.twingalaxies.com/showthr...DKC-Discussion


    Tompa was invited to challenge the score, but I can’t recall what elements the challenge process at that time would have addressed from previous discussions (eg. would the original approval process paper trail be examined, etc).


    Not directly related but potentially relevant, in another dispute TG member RaGe pointed out that an impossible time was inputted into the database by Walter Day in 2010 for Odyssey 2’s Spin-Out! who ultimately didn’t vet that the submission conformed to the the track rules.


    The fact that Carlos Krueger’s time wasn’t entered onto the scoreboard for 8 years, but was apparently rediscovered once Lalonde submitted what was believed to be an inaugural run, makes me wonder how the time came to light and what other documentation pertained to it.
  4. 11-23-2019, 02:52 AM
    I wasn't too nice to Kevin back then... Later on when he joined the SpeedRunsLive community, as neskamikaze, he did however thank me for being harsh on him, as it motivated him to try harder.

    Anyway... As far as I can remember, the 00:28 run was always there... Nothing in the thread indicates anything else that I can see? Kevin's run spawned a good opportunity for me to bring it up however, as I had made myself quite familiar with the game at the time.

    I never sent a run to TG in order to challenge the score. What I did was to post a TAS in the thread to show how unrealistic the time was, I never bothered to make an avi file of it so I doubt anyone actually took the time to get the ROM and emulator to replay the file, that run is still linked in the thread.
    Thanks The Evener thanked this post
  5. 11-23-2019, 07:33 AM
    Here's a 2004 thread from Rdrunner announcing "fresh categories that don't have any times attached to them."

    https://www.twingalaxies.com/showthr...ntry-1-2-and-3

    DKC Minimalist is one of them. Krueger's score was apparently submitted back in 2001 according to the current leaderboard, so it predates the existence of the track by at least 3 years.

    Further down in the same thread, there's a discussion of a 28 min score under the DKC 101% Fastest Completion with saves that's listed ahead of Tom Votava's 47 min (see post #3 and further). The consensus is that the time is impossible under the category, prompting people to suggest it should be slotted under a DKC minimalist track. From my reading the various threads, this migration of Krueger's score occurs only after he formally submits a time to the track.

    It's clear from the discussion that the migration of Krueger's time, while well intentioned, was arbitrary. Essentially, TG replaced one error with another. Fundamentally, there was no ability on TG's part to confirm that Krueger's submission conformed to the rules of the brand new track since his performance predates the creation of the specific track by 3 years. Critically, the DKC minimalist track specifically cites "no saves" - keep in mind that its original inclusion under the DKC Fastest Completion permitted saves. Additionally, DKC minimalist prohibits warps, which I suspect made this track an outlier given the wider use of glitches in speedrunning elsewhere. The migration of this score absent any ability to reconfirm via readjudication that the performance conformed to the rules - namely no saves and no warps - is a violation of the norms and practices surrounding adjudication ensuring performances align with track rules.
  6. 11-23-2019, 07:36 AM
    Here's a 2004 thread from Rdrunner announcing "fresh categories that don't have any times attached to them."

    https://www.twingalaxies.com/showthr...ntry-1-2-and-3

    DKC Minimalist is one of them. Krueger's score was apparently submitted back in 2001 according to the current leaderboard, so it predates the existence of the track by at least 3 years.

    Further down in the same thread, there's a discussion of a 28 min score under the DKC 101% Fastest Completion with saves that's listed ahead of Tom Votava's 47 min (see post #3 and further). The consensus is that the time is impossible under the category, prompting people to suggest it should be slotted under a DKC minimalist track. From my reading the various threads, this migration of Krueger's score occurs only after Kevin Lalonde formally submits a time to the track years later.

    It's clear from the discussion that the migration of Krueger's time, while well intentioned (a practice we saw with the Odyssey 2 Spin-Out track for example), was arbitrary. Essentially, TG replaced one error with another. Fundamentally, there was no ability on TG's part to confirm that Krueger's submission conformed to the rules of the brand new track since his performance predates the creation of the specific track by 3 years. Critically, the DKC minimalist track specifically cites "no saves" - keep in mind that its original inclusion under the DKC Fastest Completion permitted saves. Additionally, DKC minimalist prohibits warps, which I suspect made this track an outlier given the wider use of glitches in speedrunning elsewhere. The migration of this score absent any ability to reconfirm via readjudication that the performance conformed to the rules - namely no saves and no warps - is a violation of the norms and practices surrounding adjudication ensuring performances align with track rules.
  7. 11-23-2019, 10:36 AM
    @TWIN GALAXIES - I believe that the combination of the technical evidence provided by Tompa and Starcrytas with the documentary evidence contained in the Twin Galaxies archives surrounding the errant administration of this score meets the threshold to confirm the dispute's validity and sanction the removal of the time from this track.
  8. 11-23-2019, 11:41 PM
    Based on the evidence presented in this dispute claim, the claim is accepted.
    Thanks Tompa, starcrytas thanked this post
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