Dispute: Garrett Holland - Atari 2600 / VCS - Pac-Man - NTSC - Game 1, Difficulty B (Points) - Player: Desirae Olsen - Score: 932,497

Is this a valid dispute?

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  1. Dispute: Garrett Holland - Atari 2600 / VCS - Pac-Man - NTSC - Game 1, Difficulty B (Points) - Player: Desirae Olsen - Score: 932,497

    05-26-2019, 04:34 PM
    Atari 2600 / VCS - Pac-Man - NTSC - Game 1, Difficulty B (Points)
    Score Track
    https://www.twingalaxies.com/scores.php?scores=25
    Rules
    Game 1 variation (slow moving Pac Man, ghosts at jogging speed).
    Difficulty switch must be set to B position (this is the easier difficulty).
    Player Name
    Desirae Olsen
    Original Adjudication
    N/A
    Verification Method
    Referee
    Verification Date
    1984-01-12
    Disputed Score
    932,497 (Rank 1)
    Disputed By
    Garrett Holland
    Dispute Evidence / Rationale
    The justification for removal of this (and eventually, every other score added under the same circumstances) are as follows:

    1. We have no evidence this player or any other player mentioned even exists.

    2. These scores were added by someone with access to our database who found these scores published in Volume 1, No. 2 issue of Creative Computer Video Arcade magazine. --> http://www.digitpress.com/library/ma...vag_fall83.pdf


    3. This magazine issue is literally the only source on the planet for the existence of these scores, and most of the people mentioned within the "Survey of High Scores" section.


    4. On page 16 of this same source, again, the only source on the planet for these "achievements" clearly admit that "the inclusion of pictures [with submission] remain optional", followed by "we trust our readers to report their scores honestly".


    ... the incriminating disclosure ...


    5. A "referee" at Twin Galaxies adding scores that may or may not have been submitted to some old magazine back in 1983 where the people mentioned may or may not even exist, submitted admittedly without any proof, admittedly accepting scores that were written on a piece of paper and mailed in (or even made up) fails to even remotely approach the most lax of standards that Twin Galaxies has ever had since its inception, much less today's standards of *some* sort of proof other than "Gee, I'll fill out this form and put a bunch of numbers on it, slap a stamp on the envelope, and *BOOM!*, I'm a world-record holder of literally one of the most recognized titles in classic home gaming in human history, Pac-Man for the Atari 2600! YAY!"

    6. APPARENTLY, FORMER TG REFEREES AGREE, because out of all of the scores listed in the above-mentioned magazine, several are not currently in the TG database (at least on the front-facing side of it). 95% of those either omitted or already removed JUST SO HAPPEN to have the putative leaders at the time of entry in those specific tracks as ... you guessed it ... former TG referees. I'm not suggesting malfeasance on the former referees' part ... on the contrary ... They clearly felt that these scores were bogus, and got rid of them as each of them participated in their respective tracks. I would suggest that if these scores are bad enough to be disqualified in tracks that former TG referees participated in (which they SHOULD have been, so props to the former referees), they MUST be bad enough to be disqualified in every other track that the referees DID NOT participate in.

    7. By my calculations, it would take this individual nearly 14 hours, 20 minutes of non-stop play (max 8 lives at any time ... and at max skill level, it takes about 4 seconds for the ghosts to travel from their home to the Pac-man's starting location, catch Pac-man, the Pac-Man-Caught audio jingle, and re-initialization of the board), giving the person less than 32 seconds to use the restroom), and that is only *if* they played perfect rounds for the entire 14.33 hours, eating all 4 ghosts on all 4 pellets and getting one vitamin each rounds. Furthermore, far be it for me to assume one's gender, but I will go out on a limb here and suggest that "Desirae" is female. I have a mother, a wife, 2 sisters, and 5 daughters. Sorry ... they're not playing any game for 14 hours 20 minutes without visiting the restroom for at least 32 seconds. It's just not going to happen.

    inb4s: The general consensus appears to be, "All submissions are assumed to be 100% accurate, and the onus is on others to prove otherwise."

    I would suggest that these scores were never submitted, and therefore, cannot be considered "submissions". They were entered off the cuff by a TG individual (honestly, it doesn't even matter which TG individual) that happened to pick up a magazine one time and read it, a magazine that itself admitted had absolutely zero standards in validating scores its readers mailed to them, relying purely on "honesty".

    I'd like to see a TG database without scores that were arbitrarily entered by an unnamed TG staffer (or founder?) that relied on nothing other than the "honesty" of some person (that may or may not even exist) to whom the score was attributed by some editors in a now-defunct magazine who told their readers to fill out a form, write a bunch of numbers on it, and mail it in without a shred of evidence.

    I'll be disputing every other score listed in that magazine that still remains in our database. Yes ... it's *ours*, and the above-mentioned philosophy of the onus being on others to prove a negative for scores added because some magazine at some point had some printed words and numbers in it needs to die off, in my honest opinion. We either have a solid database or we do not.

    If Desirae Olsen even exists, and they somehow contact TG, I will literally EAT the section of the page of the magazine I printed out that has their name and score, and then I'll withdraw my dispute. If they provide any kind of nonfabricated proof of the score, I'll eat the entire magazine and give them $500 cash.
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  2. 05-26-2019, 08:16 PM
    Given the circumstances, I definitely think this is a valid dispute.
    Lauren Tyler
    Eternal Champion of Ragol
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  3. 05-26-2019, 09:04 PM
    Quote Originally Posted by Garrett Holland View Post

    I will literally EAT the section of the page of the magazine I printed out that has their name and score, and then I'll withdraw my dispute. If they provide any kind of non-fabricated proof of the score, I'll eat the entire magazine and give them $500 cash.
    Bribes and tips are not allowed at TG, unless you are an infamous Contra 3 player, with a roommate friend as a former referee to verify it. ;)
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  4. 05-26-2019, 09:09 PM
    Quote Originally Posted by Marcade View Post
    ... unless you are an infamous Contra 3 player ...
    Well, to their credit, at least they were confident enough to eventually explain how they got the score ... oh ... wait ... nevermind LOL
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  5. 05-26-2019, 09:16 PM
    damn nice research. i'm always impressed by what some members find

    you also handle the whole "no proof" is invalid counterargument well by explaing the source of input

    there's also precedent. TG mass removed a bunch of score from nintendo power. So imported scores have absolutely been removed en masse before when it was decided the source wasnt trust worthy (note i personally regard nintendo power as more official for nintendo scores than tg, but whatever, my point was just that the precedent exists).

    i cant find where they explicilty made the decision, this is largely word of mouth, however is spent a little while looking for a source before posting this and at least here, comment 10, you can see them talking about the plans to soon remove the nintendo power scores https://www.twingalaxies.com/showthr...423#post570423
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  6. 05-26-2019, 09:23 PM
    https://www.twingalaxies.com/showthr...982#post576982
    https://www.twingalaxies.com/showthr...908#post576908

    tom votava seemed to really want a lot of imported nes scores gone. i'm sure the fact that removing those scores would give him credit as best nes player had nothing to do with it lol

    but the fact remains, precedent was set to remove afiliates -- even official affiliates like nintendo power for nes scores if they felt they didnt do a good enough job verifying. certianly the magazine this score came from that relied on the honor system is far less reliable than nintendo power

    Then again though, this score doesnt beat one of tom's scores so maybe it gets to say :)
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  7. 05-26-2019, 10:22 PM
    Interesting dispute!

    Ive always looked at Score and thought why not keep going to the million?

    68k away would only be another hour or 2 of play.

    Obviously to get that type of score you would have had to had a solid/safe pattern.

    Will be curious to see how this pans out.
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  8. 05-26-2019, 10:46 PM
    Quote Originally Posted by nads View Post
    Obviously to get that type of score you would have had to had a solid/safe pattern.
    ... and a very strong bladder.
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  9. 05-26-2019, 11:42 PM
    Quote Originally Posted by Snowflake View Post
    ... comment 10, you can see them talking about the plans to soon remove the nintendo power scores
    It looks like TG did finally get around to that. When that happened, I can't be sure, but the comment thread you referenced is about 15 years old LOL! Here's hoping that these garbage scores from this magazine are removed before 2034, eh?
  10. 05-28-2019, 05:22 PM
    According to a TG archive of a UPI article, Ken Anderson took 8 hours to achieve 325,116 (which sounds a lot more realistic), meaning it would have taken nearly 24 hours non-stop, no trips to the restroom to get 932,497 if they played at Ken Anderson's pace.

    https://www.twingalaxies.com/content...Pac-Man-Record
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