Dispute: Angela Stefanski - NES / FAMICOM / DISK - The Legend of Zelda - NTSC - Fastest Completion [1st Quest] - Player: Rodrigo Lopes - Score: 31:37.0

Is this a valid dispute?

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This poll is closed
  1. 11-27-2019, 09:12 AM
    Quote Originally Posted by datagod View Post

    People talk the talk but very few walk the walk.
    Are we LIP FLAPPIN' again??? ;)
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  2. 11-27-2019, 11:34 AM
    Quote Originally Posted by Lauren Tyler View Post
    If I recall correctly, he tends to submit a large cluster of scores for the Dissidia game for mobile devices. I'm not sure if any of the recent ones passed, but if he continues to do this, it may create a larger problem.
    He clearly doesn't have the time to dig out the tape, digitize it, and upload it. He's got 10,000 more scores to submit for Final Space Bird Opera Fantasy Dance Off Dismal Extra Chunky Edition.
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  3. 11-27-2019, 02:53 PM
    Question to you Jace Hall your thoughts.

    If Rodrigo Lopes Scores and Records are removed and the Engineers cannot figure a way to keep the Credibility Points that are lost. Then here a great idea, simple to solve.

    1.A big IF?? Rodrigo gets his Records removed. Tell the TG members to make copy of their current credibility points on the day engineers remove all the Rodrigo's records.

    Tell all Twin Galaxy members they are removing his scores and be ready for the Credibility hit and keep a copy of their current credibility points on that day.

    2. If possible have Twin Galaxy staff and engineers keep a LOG the current credibility points for each Twin Galaxy members, on the day that Rodrigo's records are removed then that would the most accurate on reimbursing every Twin Galaxy who the giant hit on their credibility points


    example today Wednesday,November 27,2019

    my Credibility Points 35,738 takes a hit of 20,000 I am left 15,738. Then reimburse the lost credibility OP

    JJT_DefenderHonored Veteran
    Credibility:35738
    Submission points: 20806
    JJT_Defender
    Honored Veteran
    Credibility:35738
    Submission points: 20806

    3. If Rodrigo does present the tape of the performance make sure the date is correct on the DVD or VHS, before letting all Twin Galaxy members view and adjudicate the Legend of Zelda and Link to the past videos.

    Quote Originally Posted by Jace Hall View Post
    Quick update -

    We have not heard back from Rodrigo yet. We will see if he responds.

    In the meanwhile, we have asked the engineer's to look at the ramifications of removing Rodrigo's TGSAP scores - as it may not be possible to maintain people's calculated CR's for scores and records that are no longer there.
    JJTJohnnyLightning World #1 Racer on Arcade Game Fast & Furious Super Cars 1,803 Match Wins 49Cities
  4. 11-28-2019, 03:44 PM
    I had no idea that if a disputed score was removed, there would be a penalty to our credibility. I mean, it seems kind of silly to penalize us after the fact.
    Lauren Tyler
    Eternal Champion of Ragol
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  5. 11-28-2019, 04:09 PM
    Quote Originally Posted by Lauren Tyler View Post
    I had no idea that if a disputed score was removed, there would be a penalty to our credibility. I mean, it seems kind of silly to penalize us after the fact.
    Well, there would be no "penalty" in the traditional sense. Under a performance adjudication that someone participated in, they were either on the correct side or incorrect side of the adjudication, and the CR result is computed on that basis.

    So this means that a performance that was previously accepted as valid, but then later discovered to be invalid will result in a "penalty" for those who accepted the performance claim due to the fact that they received CR from the initial adjudication, and now they will lose that CR gain and also be impacted with a % loss calculation against their total CR.

    It is important to understand that everyone's CR is based on an ACTIVE continuous calculation that is governed by an ever present series of back-end services that are always looking at the present status of all submissions and making adjustments. This is the only way we can "go back in time" and make adjustments to CR and etc. and keep everything balanced and calculated.

    If we remove all of Rodrigo's scores, they will be gone from the system entirely. There will be nothing in the system for the system to look at and calculate CR from. Therefore there is no way to award CR for something that is no longer there.

    We can't just "take a snapshot" of CR and then remove the scores and then "put the CR" back, as there is nothing present for the system to base the CR on. The system will just continue its cycle of constant calculation and everyone's CR will be recalculated based on the adjudications that are actually present.

    This is why if I just went into a users account and artificially tried to raise their CR by manually typing it in, it eventually would be auto-corrected by the system as it makes its rounds constantly calculating what the correct CR should be. There is no way to stop that without simply turning off the CR services and leaving them off permanently.

    Anyway, the Lopes score removal will be different than a reversed submission acceptance. CR that was gained from those adjudications will vanish, yes - and that can be argued to be considered a kind of "penalty", but there will be no traditional "penalty" where voters take a % CR hit for "being incorrect" as it relates to those scores.

    It's a little complicated, but I hope I explained it well enough to illustrate the concerns. I've asked the engineers to look at solutions, but it doesn't look good. We don't want to hack the system for special case purposes.
    Jace Hall
    Head Custodian
    www.TwinGalaxies.com
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  6. 11-28-2019, 05:31 PM
    jace what about submission points? that sounds like if submission points are undone cause the system thinks the score never happened then some people will have a huge amount of negative submissions points. i can see a huge negative number for submission points being very discouraging

    also when you say it cant be done, do you just mean you're programmer doesnt know how to do it? i think of when a score gets beat. the system still remembers the cred for the old scores. theres no reason why you cant both simultaneously have an audit log of scores which were historically there that the system checks on as well as a current view where the scores are removed.

    even if such a limitation where on the technical side and not the ability of the programmer then theres always work arounds that people can work out. one thing off the top of my head. instead of techincally deleting rodrigos scores, they could be moved to invisible tracks that exist soley for the purpose of this work around. all rodrigos scores get moved to these ghost tracks, now they're still in the system. now the cred calculates fine. they're also off the real tracks. file these ghost tracks under pinball since pinball already doesnt count in world record count or esi.
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  7. 11-28-2019, 05:45 PM
    also are you guys deleting or expunging? it sounds like you're truly expunging and mucking up your history. normally deletes arent true deletes, the sematnics are awkward but let me explain

    you dont truly delete something from storage. rather you add an entry that literally says "deleted". that way all records historically still exist. all combing that goes through the audit log to build cred would still work. but when building the tables in the database, when it finally comes to the "delete" entry it removes the score from the database

    its not at all uncommon to have deletes from a database that dont truly wipe out history and interfere with calculations that need to look at history
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  8. 11-28-2019, 06:17 PM
    Quote Originally Posted by Jace Hall View Post
    Well, there would be no "penalty" in the traditional sense. Under a performance adjudication that someone participated in, they were either on the correct side or incorrect side of the adjudication, and the CR result is computed on that basis.

    So this means that a performance that was previously accepted as valid, but then later discovered to be invalid will result in a "penalty" for those who accepted the performance claim due to the fact that they received CR from the initial adjudication, and now they will lose that CR gain and also be impacted with a % loss calculation against their total CR.

    It is important to understand that everyone's CR is based on an ACTIVE continuous calculation that is governed by an ever present series of back-end services that are always looking at the present status of all submissions and making adjustments. This is the only way we can "go back in time" and make adjustments to CR and etc. and keep everything balanced and calculated.

    If we remove all of Rodrigo's scores, they will be gone from the system entirely. There will be nothing in the system for the system to look at and calculate CR from. Therefore there is no way to award CR for something that is no longer there.

    We can't just "take a snapshot" of CR and then remove the scores and then "put the CR" back, as there is nothing present for the system to base the CR on. The system will just continue its cycle of constant calculation and everyone's CR will be recalculated based on the adjudications that are actually present.

    This is why if I just went into a users account and artificially tried to raise their CR by manually typing it in, it eventually would be auto-corrected by the system as it makes its rounds constantly calculating what the correct CR should be. There is no way to stop that without simply turning off the CR services and leaving them off permanently.

    Anyway, the Lopes score removal will be different than a reversed submission acceptance. CR that was gained from those adjudications will vanish, yes - and that can be argued to be considered a kind of "penalty", but there will be no traditional "penalty" where voters take a % CR hit for "being incorrect" as it relates to those scores.

    It's a little complicated, but I hope I explained it well enough to illustrate the concerns. I've asked the engineers to look at solutions, but it doesn't look good. We don't want to hack the system for special case purposes.
    Just trying to make sure I'm reading this correctly. So if Rodrigo has all his scores removed from the database, we will lose CR because the scores technically wouldn't exist to the TGSAP? Okay, I understand that. However, I myself and many others have voted on several hundred or more of Rodrigo's submissions. So that is just wasted time on our part? Doesn't seem very reasonable this can't be changed for that. Just so I am being clear, the score in question didn't pass TGSAP verification, it was REF verified. That means people who have joined during the TGSAP era have nothing to do with this score...hell, only the supposedly 3 people who verified this score are responsible for this score being in the database!! So WE used the TGSAP system at hand as it should be, and are now essentially being told "Sorry, nothing we can do to change this if we remove the scores." Um...I'm sorry but I thought TG was running this website??

    TG definitely can do something about this. We as adjudicators had no part in any score/scores being verified Pre-TGSAP. My time spent voting on submissions and the CR/SP I've earned during the TGSAP era damn well should remain as is for that very reason alone, as well should everyone elses. WE had no part in any way of helping a cheated score being entered in the database either. These outcomes can most certainly be avoided, otherwise it is yet another hit to TG and how it looks when the system in place isn't protected from the old bullshit that has occurred before it. Clearly, this was probably an overlooked side effect that a gamer from the pre-TGSAP era still being highly active in this current era being found of a cheated score. God, I hope Barthax doesn't have any cheated scores. Pretty much wipes a quarter of the TGSAP era out with him and Rodrigo if that happens.

    Fix it. Take the time to correct it. However long it takes, fix it. This will only hurt the TGSAP system if disputed scores will lead to all members essentially wasting their time when something like this removes all the time we put into adjudicating. We did our part to adjudicate the scores, we didn't help cheat them. Yes, all scores should be removed if one is found cheated, but everyone who voted on them shouldn't be fucked at the same time.
  9. 11-28-2019, 06:20 PM
    Allow me to walk you through my understanding of the situation. This will allow me to solidify my stance on this matter. There is a TL/DR at the bottom (too long, didn't read)

    Getting a known cheater removed from the scoreboard is so important to me that I will not be complaining about any personal CR that I lose. I adjudicated a lot of Angry Birds so I imagine I will take quite the hit.

    However, I do need to point out that taking a CR hit due to the removal of all of a cheater's scores can easily be seen as punishment and even worse, a deterrent to doing the right thing.

    Several of us have put our cohones on the line and LIKED the post where we confirm we are not haters and are willing to be banned permanently if Rodrigo can prove his score is valid. Some have pointed out how foolish that is, all risk and no reward. But that is how strongly we feel about the evidence and how much we want scoreboard integrity.

    Even though I am willing to take a CR hit, perhaps others are not. Perhaps in the future people will be less willing to speak up about a possible cheater for fears that their hard work adjudicating will be erased along with the all the cheater's scores.

    As professional programmer with 25+ years (most in the back end / database realm) I can understand that this is no small task.

    When it runs, the Credibility Calculation Engine (tm) would need to examine every person's adjudication history and record their CR at that particular point in time. I can see this as a relatively straightforward task, with multiple processes spawned in order to spread the workload. When a new score is adjudicated, the system would then have to update the CR for those that adjudicated that score. When a score is disputed and rejected, the same calculation would take place for those affected.

    When a score (doesn't matter how many) is removed, the CR is recalculated for each individual user affected. (CR is not applied to pre-tgsap scores so that is not part of the equation).

    When people adjudicate they get two things: CR +/- and submission points.

    Submission points are a type of digital currency that is generated by their adjudication work. Removing a cheater's score should not reduce submission points, as the work was still done. I don't know if the system currently penalizes people by reducing their submission when a score is overturned during a dispute process. If it does I would voice concern.

    Like submission points, credibility may be seen as a reward however when it is in fact a RATING . The scores will be removed and CR will continue to calculate ratings based on existing valid scores.

    CR is not a high score to be attained. It is not points showing how much work you put in. It is a rating that shows how many times you adjudicated correctly.


    -----------------------------------------------------
    TL/DR Credibility is not a reward. It is a rating. Creditability ratings will be adjusted to remain accurate. This is good. Please continue to fight for scoreboard integrity. We are all in this together. The more cheaters expunged, the higher TG's credibility will be in the overall gaming community.

    @JaceHall please do not remove submission points. Work was performed, submission points were rewarded and spent.


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  10. 11-28-2019, 06:38 PM
    I will happily take the cred loss to keep this ball rolling. I'm tired of the what ifs and tired of waiting.
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