Dispute: Angela Stefanski - NES / FAMICOM / DISK - The Legend of Zelda - NTSC - Fastest Completion [1st Quest] - Player: Rodrigo Lopes - Score: 31:37.0

Is this a valid dispute?

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  1. 11-28-2019, 06:40 PM
    Seriously think about it @Jace Hall , I've only known of Rodrigo from TGSAP. All those scores I've adjudicated, all the time it takes to do it, the CR that is needed to have access to certain things on the website, and the SP I need to submit are all going to be wiped out because of something he did in 2006...8-9 years prior to TGSAP even being a thing? And now you say it's not worth "hacking" the system for a special case? Old database, well done, you have fucked the new TGSAP era up yet again. You win.

    This can be fixed. Seems to me the altering of coding is the answer. As you have said Jace the system can't compute if something isn't there...yes, if it's coded that way. So make it recognize something WAS there. Create an entirely new leader board for this very reason if you have to so the scores DO remain in the system they just don't matter to the leader board. Hell, history books can tell us about the Roman Empire which no longer exists. I'm sure some lines of coding can do the same. This isn't exactly the first time people are asking why the system is the way it is. ****, cancelled submissions where being entered as Rejected and cost people CR? If it's cancelled, it's that essentially like never having entered the scored into adjudication? We got penalized for that. This can be fixed. If Rodrigo's scores are determined to be removed, don't remove them until the system is fixed to account for it. Learn from this. Don't just say "Oh well, we can't just change things for a special case." Still plenty of active Pre-TGSAP members around here, so it's not all that special of a case if you ask me since it could happen again.
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  2. 11-28-2019, 08:33 PM
    Quote Originally Posted by thegamer1185 View Post
    Seriously think about it @Jace Hall, I've only known of Rodrigo from TGSAP. All those scores I've adjudicated, all the time it takes to do it, the CR that is needed to have access to certain things on the website, and the SP I need to submit are all going to be wiped out because of something he did in 2006...8-9 years prior to TGSAP even being a thing? And now you say it's not worth "hacking" the system for a special case? Old database, well done, you have fucked the new TGSAP era up yet again. You win.

    This can be fixed. Seems to me the altering of coding is the answer. As you have said Jace the system can't compute if something isn't there...yes, if it's coded that way. So make it recognize something WAS there. Create an entirely new leader board for this very reason if you have to so the scores DO remain in the system they just don't matter to the leader board. Hell, history books can tell us about the Roman Empire which no longer exists. I'm sure some lines of coding can do the same. This isn't exactly the first time people are asking why the system is the way it is. ****, cancelled submissions where being entered as Rejected and cost people CR? If it's cancelled, it's that essentially like never having entered the scored into adjudication? We got penalized for that. This can be fixed. If Rodrigo's scores are determined to be removed, don't remove them until the system is fixed to account for it. Learn from this. Don't just say "Oh well, we can't just change things for a special case." Still plenty of active Pre-TGSAP members around here, so it's not all that special of a case if you ask me since it could happen again.
    absolutley. i worked with hopsital software and audit logs. i can absolutley confirm when a patient is discharged thier history is not all lost. it is very easy to maintain a history of things removed. this isnt even engineering. this isnt really even coding. it barely qualifies the title as technician.
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  3. 11-28-2019, 08:49 PM
    Quote Originally Posted by Jace Hall View Post
    So this means that a performance that was previously accepted as valid, but then later discovered to be invalid will result in a "penalty" for those who accepted the performance claim due to the fact that they received CR from the initial adjudication, and now they will lose that CR gain and also be impacted with a % loss calculation against their total CR.
    None of RL's TGSAP scores are going to be found "invalid". They aren't being disputed (maybe some are, I don't know - I'm talking in general) They were voted on and verified as legitimate. Removing them because he cheated a non-TGSAP score doesn't change this. If the system isn't setup to deal with a case like this then its the system that needs fixing

    As a voter, all scores are independent of each other. I vote on a performance based on the evidence supplied in the submission thread. If one performance is deemed invalid after the fact, it doesn't automatically cause the rest to be illegitimate (not saying they should remain on the scoreboard, but that's a totally different debate)

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  4. 11-28-2019, 08:57 PM
    Quote Originally Posted by thegamer1185 View Post
    Seriously think about it @Jace Hall, I've only known of Rodrigo from TGSAP. All those scores I've adjudicated, all the time it takes to do it, the CR that is needed to have access to certain things on the website, and the SP I need to submit are all going to be wiped out because of something he did in 2006...8-9 years prior to TGSAP even being a thing? And now you say it's not worth "hacking" the system for a special case? Old database, well done, you have fucked the new TGSAP era up yet again. You win.

    This can be fixed. Seems to me the altering of coding is the answer. As you have said Jace the system can't compute if something isn't there...yes, if it's coded that way. So make it recognize something WAS there. Create an entirely new leader board for this very reason if you have to so the scores DO remain in the system they just don't matter to the leader board. Hell, history books can tell us about the Roman Empire which no longer exists. I'm sure some lines of coding can do the same. This isn't exactly the first time people are asking why the system is the way it is. ****, cancelled submissions where being entered as Rejected and cost people CR? If it's cancelled, it's that essentially like never having entered the scored into adjudication? We got penalized for that. This can be fixed. If Rodrigo's scores are determined to be removed, don't remove them until the system is fixed to account for it. Learn from this. Don't just say "Oh well, we can't just change things for a special case." Still plenty of active Pre-TGSAP members around here, so it's not all that special of a case if you ask me since it could happen again.
    I don't see how it's Jace's or TG's "fault" that we spent time adjudicating scores that could be removed as part of a larger sanction or penalty. Since things are interconnected, it's unavoidable. TG can't give you back the time you spent on those submissions, true. I guess if people are going to reconsider their stance on disputes based on the potential impact of CR and submission points, let's not beat up on pre-TGSAP scores aka the old database - it could very well come to pass years down the road that the community will discover that a TGSAP-era submission is fraudulent in some way, setting up the exact same situation. We had video on the Internet from a well-known Donkey Kong player for *years* that was only discovered to contain evidence of non-arcade use in 2018. I don't want to sound glib, but why should TG do anything else but just remove scores and we all bear the brunt? I guess the moral of the story is that scoreboard integrity actually does come at a price?
  5. 11-28-2019, 09:05 PM
    Quote Originally Posted by The Evener View Post
    I don't see how it's Jace's or TG's "fault" that we spent time adjudicating scores that could be removed as part of a larger sanction or penalty. Since things are interconnected, it's unavoidable. TG can't give you back the time you spent on those submissions, true. I guess if people are going to reconsider their stance on disputes based on the potential impact of CR and submission points, let's not beat up on pre-TGSAP scores aka the old database - it could very well come to pass years down the road that the community will discover that a TGSAP-era submission is fraudulent in some way, setting up the exact same situation. We had video on the Internet from a well-known Donkey Kong player for *years* that was only discovered to contain evidence of non-arcade use in 2018. I don't want to sound glib, but why should TG do anything else but just remove scores and we all bear the brunt? I guess the moral of the story is that scoreboard integrity actually does come at a price?
    i agree that if the only choices are a bad scoreboard or we take a hit we dont deserve, i say take a hit. scoreboard integrity comes first. however, i feel this choice is artificial. the problem being described as near impossible to solve is actually very easy to solve and has been solved by many business for decades. there is a third way here where everyone wins.
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  6. 11-28-2019, 09:39 PM
    This is clearly a "recall" moment for the TGSAP system. It's all worked out great until this scenario and now it's being recognized there is a flaw. Recall it and fix the problem. It's what most companies do with their products. Put out a product not realizing there is an issue. People find the issue, you recall the product. They fix it, send it back out without the problem. Except this is in house and the product is already in your possession. Of course it sucks and will take away resources from other things, but this is the life blood of the new TG. Saying it's a TGSAP problem probably isn't even accurate. It IS simply a problem, something that was not considered when the dispute system was put in.

    It's just wrong. No other way to put it. Rodrigo cheated, so now we all get cheated. All's fair I guess? There are a lot of ways to make this work, simply saying "hacking the system for one special case" isn't one of them and is just wrong. Add a leader board and don't make it public...scores still remain on site and all CR/SP remain. Hell, you can leave the scores in the current leader board and mark them with a shame tag forever to be seen. Scores remain, CR/SP remain. Can't be to much work adding a shame tag next to a players profile. I'm sure the coding is already written to check player profiles then scores. All you would have to do is add the coding for shame tag in the players profile name and there you go...shamed. There are ways to do this without screwing us adjudicators over.
  7. 11-28-2019, 09:53 PM
    Can't you(TG engineers) just make his scores INVISIBLE and then code the system to adjust the rankings without including invisible scores?




    john

    .
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  8. 11-28-2019, 09:54 PM
    Quote Originally Posted by lexmark View Post
    Can't you(TG engineers) just make his scores INVISIBLE and then code the system to adjust the rankings without including invisible scores?




    john

    .
    they did this with ron. if ron has first place, then the 2nd place would still say second. an example is burger time intellivions, to be fair i'm not sure that one is ron, but its a simliar concept of an invisible score. i believe most of the ron ones they fixed on a case by case basis later to truly delete
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  9. 11-28-2019, 10:46 PM
    There are only so many bandaids you can put on a system. If the underlying data structures were poorly designed then all these quick little fixes add up and the system becomes unsupportable.

    If you are not in software development then you likely won't understand. Imagine you want a race car, but you start out with a weird Soviet three wheeled car. Bit by bit you add pieces over the years to keep the car running. Every once in a while a cash infusion lets you buy some beefier parts but they get harder and harder to apply. The underlying structure of the vehicle you are cobbling together will always bee a soviet three wheeled car.

    Your mechanic now spends most of his time (and your money) juggling the weird pieces keeping the damn thing running. And you come along and say "just add a bigger motor!" "Just put on a sun roof!" "Just put spiffy tires on it!".
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  10. 11-28-2019, 10:48 PM
    I have just heard back from the engineers that it is now indeed possible to do a full removal and not impact everyone's CR or Submission Points.

    So, that is no longer a concern.

    I will be waiting a few more days to allow for Rodrigo to supply the performance he has claimed to posses and if Rodrigo chooses not to provide (which is his right) then TG Admin will convene on a final decision.

    Thank you.
    Jace Hall
    Head Custodian
    www.TwinGalaxies.com
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