Dispute: Angela Stefanski - NES / FAMICOM / DISK - The Legend of Zelda - NTSC - Fastest Completion [1st Quest] - Player: Rodrigo Lopes - Score: 31:37.0

Is this a valid dispute?

    This poll is closed
This poll is closed
  1. 11-13-2019, 08:20 PM
    how much esi is this worth
    stg never die. 47 stg 1cc's
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  2. 11-14-2019, 08:45 AM
    So basically TG isn't judging the person only the score, but based on their judgment of the person he will be penalized but not because of the score.

    I know the speedrunning community is gonna get a good laugh outta this. I know I already am.
    Likes starcrytas, ersatz_cats, Marcade liked this post
  3. 11-14-2019, 10:27 AM
    Quote Originally Posted by TWIN GALAXIES View Post
    As we all know, just because something is highly improbable, does not mean that it did not happen. This speed run has been objectively proven to be highly improbable, not definitively impossible. This is an important point that anyone seeking legal recourse will raise in their discussion. There must be a strong position for Twin Galaxies to take relative to that kind of claim, and frankly a strong position should exist regardless if a record is to be removed.

    Twin Galaxies is specifically focused on whether or not the submission is valid. Even in that narrow scope, where most of the evidence supports the assertion that the performance is not valid, its still not absolute - so, trying to determine whether or not actual cheating or misrepresentation took place on top of the invalidity determination based on the evidence provided is out of the question. Without hard absolute evidence within a dispute claim, Twin Galaxies is not evaluating Rodrigo Lopes' character in any regard - only the veracity of his speed run performance claim.

    There are individuals who will claim that there must have been "cheating" and would hope that Twin Galaxies would decree as such. Unfortunately, there is no specific proof of actual cheating provided in the dispute claim evidence. There is no evidence of how exactly was the cheating done. Twin Galaxies has to justify and explain if it is going to claim cheating specifically.

    Again, the evidence provided may show an improbable record, but there is no specific evidence of how or why that improbable record managed to get into the database, . Was a ref a friend? Was it an error? etc. Yes? Absolute proof?? There could be a bunch of explanations.

    For the moment, all the evidence objectively and strongly suggests, is that the run is very much not likely valid based on probability/circumstance and should be removed.

    Given the above, concluding that the record is invalid and therefore must be purely due to the result of cheating is a subjective determination at this current time. Certainly, anyone can have whatever opinion they want, but Twin Galaxies must have definitive and absolute proof before it can consider that avenue of thinking officially.
    I do have a question regarding this dispute and potential actions TG may take based on this.

    There are additional disputes around other of Rodrigo Lopes' pre-TGSAP scores. None have the level of research that have gone into this one, but they also represent highly questionable records as compared to the rest of the community at that point, with the same refusal to provide video proof. (See https://www.twingalaxies.com/showthr...ore-03-04-49-0 as an example) And while those disputes are likely to remain in the same area of uncertainty as this one, assuming no video proof were to be provided, I would think they can provide circumstantial evidence that this is not a one-time "mistake", but a potential pattern of behavior.

    I would like to know that if all of his pre-TGSAP scores are removed, does that clear out these other disputes, preventing any future discoveries regarding them from having consequences? Are there ways these can be taken into account in the situation?
  4. 11-14-2019, 12:22 PM
    Quote Originally Posted by GibGirl View Post
    I do have a question regarding this dispute and potential actions TG may take based on this.

    There are additional disputes around other of Rodrigo Lopes' pre-TGSAP scores. None have the level of research that have gone into this one, but they also represent highly questionable records as compared to the rest of the community at that point, with the same refusal to provide video proof. (See https://www.twingalaxies.com/showthr...ore-03-04-49-0 as an example) And while those disputes are likely to remain in the same area of uncertainty as this one, assuming no video proof were to be provided, I would think they can provide circumstantial evidence that this is not a one-time "mistake", but a potential pattern of behavior.

    I would like to know that if all of his pre-TGSAP scores are removed, does that clear out these other disputes, preventing any future discoveries regarding them from having consequences? Are there ways these can be taken into account in the situation?
    The dispute system's primary function is to enable people to file a dispute claim against a score for the purposes of removal from the database.

    If there is no score in the database to remove, then there is no ability to file a dispute claim.

    If people want to have a discussion about a score that is not in the Twin Galaxies database, that's fine, however that discussion needs to take place on members walls or in the general forum.

    If an open and active dispute is effectively "closed" or becomes no longer relevant due to it referencing a score no longer in the official score database because of the conclusion and decision of another dispute, Twin Galaxies will create or reference an ongoing discussion thread in the general forums for unofficial socialization and exploration to continue if desired.

    This process was done with a recent DK dispute case.
    Jace Hall
    Head Custodian
    www.TwinGalaxies.com
  5. 11-14-2019, 07:35 PM
    since it sounds like a decision is about to be made, but rodrigo is just being given fair chance to reply first, is there any sort of time table on this?
  6. 11-14-2019, 08:40 PM
    Quote Originally Posted by Ninglendo View Post
    So basically TG isn't judging the person only the score, but based on their judgment of the person he will be penalized but not because of the score.

    I know the speedrunning community is gonna get a good laugh outta this. I know I already am.
    My favorite judging of the person was...

    Ban Glen. Then unban Glen, just so he can be immediately banned again.
    Then unbanned soon after the after-ban.
  7. 11-15-2019, 02:33 AM
    Yeah I think what TG admin. is trying is trying to say in regard to a potential verdict is that 1): Enough has been presented to move the submission in question from a "questionable" nature which it was when this dispute started 4 months ago to an "invalid" designation now. So it has met that particular designation now. However, along with that it is expected that a second "burden of proof" would have to be provided as to WHY
  8. 11-15-2019, 04:02 AM
    Sorry, a continuation of the last post since it would not let me edit/delete. As far as the WHY goes Starcrytas and I provided 4 possibilities of how those spawns could show up in an actual run. However, that evidence could be classified more in the "implicit" sense in that the player may have cheated since nothing was found in the 5-minute level 9 "explicitly" from the actual video footage that suggests any kind of splice and/or foul play. Starctytas and I explained how cheating could have been done with those 4 cases so I am not sure I agree with TG Admin.'s explanation of "not explaining how it could have been done." For the most part I agree with what TG admin. says though as far as terms of punishment. One thing I would like TG admin. to possibly clarify though is sidestepping the strongest and most damning evidence that has been presented IMO. That evidence would be the comparison of TSA's spliced submission to that of the submission in question. If TSA's run represents the only way that those enemies could appear that way using an "optimized" route and that spliced run and the one in question are the only 2 known in zelda speedrunning history to feature those enemies in those specific locations then doesn't that implicitly prove that the run in question must also contain a splice even if the 4 cases that starcrytas and I discussed could be ignored?

    With that being said there are 3 ways that the "burden of proof" of cheating might be able to be achieved but only 1 of which would likely be realistic or obtainable within a few days.

    1). This was one I was thinking about other night but is not very likely obtainable. This would involve recruiting someone from Tasvideos.org to create a "human theory" TAS (tool assisted movie) using an optimized route under TG settings.. For those not familiar with what a TAS is it's a computer simulation of controller inputs used to perform a task in a video game. In the case of this submission the inputs would not have to be performed in a pixel-perfect nature as in a normal TAS but would make assumptions as to what a normal human could reasonably be expected to perform. From the player in question's menu in level 9 and heart count it would be known what items would need to be collected. If such a project were to be done the end time could then be compared to the time loss parameters that starcrytas demonstrated in post #52 and post #115 to see if the player could afford to lose that amount of time and still get 31:37. These are the only 2 cases discovered that qualify the player in question's run as single-segment which puts the enemies in the proper positions as seen in the "final moments" video. However, I don't think this a very practical method to achieve this burden of proof for a number of reasons. First and foremost I think it would be difficult to recruit someone from this community that would actually want to to do this especially if they know the backstory of why it is wanting to be done. It would be quite a time investment and between recruiting someone and actually doing it I would expect the project to take up to 6-8 weeks to complete and I don't think most people are willing to wait that long. Number 2 is that within such a project certain assumptions would have to made as to how fast a human could reasonably be expected to clear the enemies in a room and these assumptions would be subjective in nature. Finally, even if such a project was completed it would likely only prove implicit evidence of cheating since subjective determinations would have had to have been made during it. Finally, I think the TAS community would most likely see this as a farce to begin with.

    2). TG has not mentioned the possibility of reacquiring the tape cash that RTM mentioned in his last post in which the whereabouts have supposedly been determined. Could this be a viable option and what kind of time frame would be attached to it? I would estimate maybe a month to acquire and if it does have more than 100 tapes then probably another few weeks to try to find this particular submission. Once again maybe no one is willing to wait that long especially when there would not be a guarantee that the particular submission will be among them.

    3). The player in question simply releases the footage in the next few days. This is easily the best and most simple solution as far as overcoming the second burden of proof.

    Finally, if TG is taking suggestions as to the length of the "to-be-determined ban" here are some thoughts if nothing happens in the next few days: 10 years would probably be a little harsh and one year would probably be a little too lenient. I just noticed that this dispute turned 4 months old today so how about the following: How about 1 year for every month the player in question chose to ignore this dispute and continued operating business as usual submitting to a myriad number of mobile platforms. The ban would then be for 4 years barring something happening in the next few days. It would be a nice compromise between the maximum and minimum while taking into account that the player has deliberately withheld evidence during the entirety of the dispute. Those are just a few thoughts and of course the final decision would be TG's. Thank you for reading.
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  9. 11-15-2019, 11:36 AM
    I just want to add one more comment before this dispute is closed.

    I wanted to believe Rodrigo wasn't a cheater, and I had hoped he would do the right thing and upload his video. Of course as this dispute went on it became clear to me that this score was faked.

    If he is deemed to have cheated on this submission all of his Twin Galaxies scores should be removed.

    If only his pre-tgsap scores are removed, then what we are saying is that we are sure enough that he cheated to remove some of his scores, but not sure enough to remove them all.

    Cheating is binary. There is not in between.

    If one score is removed for cheating, they should ALL be removed. Cheaters must not be tolerated in any way.

    If a score is faked that means a well respected Referee has been lied to and abused. The community has been lied to and abused. The ownership has been lied to and abused. Why protect a liar and an abuser -- especially when an "out" was provided but ignored? Rodrego had the chance to come clean and he did not.

    That is all.

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    Please forward all complains to the corruption and collusion department
    Creator of Arcade Retro Clock


  10. 11-15-2019, 12:15 PM
    Quote Originally Posted by datagod View Post
    I just want to add one more comment before this dispute is closed.

    I wanted to believe Rodrigo wasn't a cheater, and I had hoped he would do the right thing and upload his video. Of course as this dispute went on it became clear to me that this score was faked.

    If he is deemed to have cheated on this submission all of his Twin Galaxies scores should be removed.

    If only his pre-tgsap scores are removed, then what we are saying is that we are sure enough that he cheated to remove some of his scores, but not sure enough to remove them all.

    Cheating is binary. There is not in between.

    If one score is removed for cheating, they should ALL be removed. Cheaters must not be tolerated in any way.

    If a score is faked that means a well respected Referee has been lied to and abused. The community has been lied to and abused. The ownership has been lied to and abused. Why protect a liar and an abuser -- especially when an "out" was provided but ignored? Rodrego had the chance to come clean and he did not.

    That is all.

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    DELIBERATE CHEATING OR MISREPRESENTATION OF ANY KIND...
    Rules are rules... Unless all you do is whine and ***** that you are being picked on by others, when his time COULD HAVE been used to prove his innocent, then the probable verdict is now to BEND the TG rules at will.

    One is not ALMOST PREGNANT!

    The Mitchell, Rogers, Corcoran way, or the highway!




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