Dispute: Blair Weston - M.A.M.E. - Point Blank - Points [Training Mode] - Player: Doron Gronski - Score: 53,736

Is this a valid dispute?

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  1. Dispute: M.A.M.E. - Point Blank - Points [Trai - 53,736

    08-30-2019, 06:53 PM
    M.A.M.E. - Point Blank - Points [Training Mode]
    Score Track
    https://www.twingalaxies.com/scores.php?scores=78923

    ROMSet: PtBlank
    DSW2 [Unused]: Off
    DSW1 [Test]: Off
    Special Rules: This is a Single Player ONLY variation for Training Mode. Continues are NOT allowed!
    Player Name
    Doron Gronski
    Original Adjudication
    https://www.twingalaxies.com/showthread.php?t=208492
    Verification Method
    TGSAP
    Verification Date
    2019-08-30
    Disputed Score
    53,736 (Rank 1)
    Disputed By
    Blair Weston
    Dispute Evidence / Rationale
    Game was played using 3 lives, whilst the rest of the scores were obtained using 1 life.
    At the end of the game you get a bonus 10,000 points for each life you have left over, in this case a bonus 30,000 points is given at the end of the game instead of 10,000 like all other scores, this is why there is a 20,000 point difference between this score and the number 2 score.
    It was mentioned in sub that there is a difference in version of MAME that is used to play this game, the older versions give 1 life to start by default and later versions give you 3 versions.
    I think that this submission needs to be moved to a new track so that future subs with new version of MAME can sub to.
  2. 08-30-2019, 09:51 PM
    I believe the score differential between first and second place is 13,791, so it's not a straight up issue of two extra hearts/20,000 extra points that explains the difference.

    I note in the game that points are awarded based on accuracy (I suspect number of shots versus number of hits to arrive at a percentage of overall accuracy), and how many targets are struck before time expiration. Couldn't an overall lower accuracy and lower total of target hits also explain the point differential between first and second place as well?

    Is it not possible to adjust the default number of lives in 106?
  3. 08-30-2019, 10:39 PM
    Quote Originally Posted by The Evener
    I believe the score differential between first and second place is 13,791, so it's not a straight up issue of two extra hearts/20,000 extra points that explains the difference.I note in the game that points are awarded based on accuracy (I suspect number of shots versus number of hits to arrive at a percentage of overall accuracy), and how many targets are struck before time expiration. Couldn't an overall lower accuracy and lower total of target hits also explain the point differential between first and second place as well?Is it not possible to adjust the default number of lives in 106?
    Taking off 2 lives would only give a 10,000 bonus resulting in a 33,000 range score and not a 53,000
  4. 08-30-2019, 10:46 PM
    Thank you for the info, Blair. Voting Yes on this dispute.
    Jared Oswald
    World record holders on "Guitar Hero", "Rock Band" and Sonic games.
  5. 08-31-2019, 12:45 AM
    It is good that there are no ******** comments about "blind voting", in this thread. There may yet be a chance that some sensible suggestions will see the light of day, and this scoreboard problem can be resolved.

    Mr Gronski's record is valid, according to the track's rules, and this dispute's rationale does nothing to contradict that. So, my recommendation is to insert a stipulation that players using the default setting for older MAME versions should add 20,000 points to their scores. Retroactively make this addition to all other scores on this scoreboard, since it is known that they used the default settings of version "106". This will result in an integrated scoreboard, which can remain error free, once a note of at which version the default settings changed is added to the rules.
  6. 08-31-2019, 05:22 AM
    I suspect that I'm in the minority, so I'll include an additional comment for reference on my rationale.

    People have asserted as fact that Doron's score was based on a 20,000 point bonus that wasn't available to other competitors because they used the default WolfMAME setting under 106 of 1 life/heart - apparently this was "corrected" with a WolfMAME update to 3 hearts/lives, which is the default in the arcade and arcade manual. The basis for this dispute rests on the argument that none of the other competitors on the track altered the default lives to match arcade.

    Whenever there is ambiguity in interpreting the rule set but no rule is broken, I will give the submitter the benefit of the doubt rather than retroactively applying a set of assumptions about how other players did or didn't interpret the rules/settings. My own "default" approach is to never accept MAME settings without comparing to arcade when looking at how to implement a "default"/factory setting. If I fired up a MAME game that granted me one life, I personally would not then blindly proceed with the assumption that this is a correct setting, especially if I played the same game in arcade, and more generally since virtually no arcade games have a "one life" default setting. Perhaps all other competitors on this track did indeed just proceed with 1 life and didn't question this, but I don't find this convincing personally given my own reaction and what I would imagine the reaction of the average TG gamers if confronted with a 1 life default on a MAME submission.
  7. 08-31-2019, 05:42 AM
    A final point: I posted my thoughts in the spirit of Terencew's invitation for the community share their views, I don't wish to come across as confrontational. The community may very well decide that the most reasonable assumption is that the other competitors used one life, my point is that one can apply another series of assumptions. I'm personally not in favour of creating other track - I think as a community we can clarify the meaning of default and have that written into the track rules, and then competitors with existing scores can step forward to compete under the clarified rule set.
  8. 08-31-2019, 05:52 AM
    Quote Originally Posted by The Evener
    I suspect that I'm in the minority, so I'll include an additional comment for reference on my rationale.People have asserted as fact that Doron's score was based on a 20,000 point bonus that wasn't available to other competitors because they used the default WolfMAME setting under 106 of 1 life/heart - apparently this was \"corrected\" with a WolfMAME update to 3 hearts/lives, which is the default in the arcade and arcade manual. The basis for this dispute rests on the argument that none of the other competitors on the track altered the default lives to match arcade.Whenever there is ambiguity in interpreting the rule set but no rule is broken, I will give the submitter the benefit of the doubt rather than retroactively applying a set of assumptions about how other players did or didn't interpret the rules/settings. My own \"default\" approach is to never accept MAME settings without comparing to arcade when looking at how to implement a \"default\"/factory setting. If I fired up a MAME game that granted me one life, I personally would not then blindly proceed with the assumption that this is a correct setting, especially if I played the same game in arcade, and more generally since virtually no arcade games have a \"one life\" default setting. Perhaps all other competitors on this track did indeed just proceed with 1 life and didn't question this, but I don't find this convincing personally given my own reaction and what I would imagine the reaction of the average TG gamers if confronted with a 1 life default on a MAME submission.
    Have you ever played this game ? I have and with one life as I was trying to beat the 39000 first place score, you can not get 50,000 + on 1 life on this track it just doesn't allow for that many points, I did get over 50,000 when I changed to 3 lives, the fact that all scores on the board are in the 30,000 range and having played this game alot is how I can tell they all used 1 life. This score needs a new track and all future scores on modern MAME should be moved to that track.Simply put it doesn't matter how good you are you can't score 50,000 on 1 life on this track, if you can do it then please provide video evidence to prove me wrong
    Likes terencew liked this post
  9. 08-31-2019, 06:47 AM
    I'm not arguing that you can achieve this score with one heart - I'm arguing that the submitter followed the track rules, and that the removal of his score upon discovery of the 1 life / 3 lives discrepancy is not the correct option to follow to address this issue going forward.

    I'm not in favour of removing an approved score based on a series of assumptions about how past competitors on the track configured their submissions. Rather than assume everyone started with one heart, I can offer a parallel set of assumptions - perhaps one or more of the existing competitors on the scoreboard changed the MAME default to match arcade but didn't excel at this title, either by losing hearts before the final round, or by barely meeting the minimum targets to continue to the next round, etc. Perhaps the community will view this possibility as outlandish, but I'm able to offer the same amount of evidence as those asserting past competitors proceeded without question to use a 1 heart setting.

    As mentioned previously I'm in favour of updating the existing track with clarified rules around a "default" start and those existing competitors who feel strongly enough can try their hand again to reclaim their score. Scores are surpassed all the time on the scoreboard, and people jockey back and forth on titles. I don't see this as any different save the fact that the community can clarify via updated rules the game settings.
  10. 08-31-2019, 10:46 AM
    Dear oh dear... without even trying too hard...
    0000.png

    Blair has already made this point, but I encourage everyone who can to have a quick play of this game, and see how badly you have to play to get <40k with 3 starting lives, and then tell me if you still believe the best TG could do until recently was 39k.

    Still not convinced? Then have a look at the Point Blank 2 scoreboards - same top 2 players. Once again, have a play at "Practice" mode in PB2 - it's a reasonable comparison to "Training" mode in PB1.
    Then see if you're still convinced that these players who pushed the PB2 Practice track to 52k (which took some effort for me, and for which you DO start with 3 lives), decided that 39k was enough in PB1 if they started with 3 lives.

    Just play the game for a bit. Don't even go for a huge score. Just play the levels conservatively as you can without losing any lives and see what you get. That should be enough to convince you that the previous best scores in this track were played under critically different conditions to the submission in dispute here. Therefore the comparison by placing them on the same scoreboard is unfair.

    The best solution here cannot possibly be any or all of...
    * to allow all scores played under obviously different settings
    * to modify existing scores
    * to place the burden on players who may no longer be active here to reclaim their rank because we allowed this score in
    * to argue that, strictly speaking, no rules were broken - that requires the admission that upholding broken/absent rules is more important than preventing a broken scoreboard

    The simplest solution I can think of at 4am to remove this score, and then tighten up the rules.

    Should probably proof-read this, but I'm tired. May regret in the morning...
    Likes EVN liked this post
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