Dispute: Blair Weston - M.A.M.E. - Point Blank - Points [Training Mode] - Player: Doron Gronski - Score: 53,736

Is this a valid dispute?

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This poll is closed
  1. 08-31-2019, 12:58 PM
    Quote Originally Posted by terencew View Post
    The best solution here cannot possibly be any or all of...

    * to modify existing scores
    Why not? The reason for the modification is clear, could easily be put into the rules, and almost certainly would not be objectionable to the players affected by it. Score modification is a common enough practice, at MARP. Do you oppose it there, as well?

    Quote Originally Posted by terencew View Post
    The best solution here cannot possibly be any or all of...

    * to argue that, strictly speaking, no rules were broken - that requires the admission that upholding broken/absent rules is more important than preventing a broken scoreboard
    This doesn't really make sense. That no rules were broken is a simple fact, not an argument to be put forward. It is not possible to uphold rules which don't exist, so the "admission" you posit is just as nonexistent. The real admission to be made, here, is that the track has failed to produce a sound scoreboard.

    I remember my first attempt at track creation. It was for the parent ROM of Tron. Because I didn't list all the service mode settings, you said that the track was no good. You made such a fuss about it, as if inclusion of such settings were some great inviolable facet of every last TG track. So, where's the smug, self righteous criticism, this time? Do you not dare to rubbish tracks founded by "TWIN GALAXIES"?

    Quote Originally Posted by terencew View Post
    The simplest solution I can think of at 4am to remove this score, and then tighten up the rules.
    You are suggesting that a valid score be removed. I don't know if that's the simplest solution, but it's definitely the worst.
  2. 09-01-2019, 05:45 PM
    admitting not to know much about this game, so i'll leave debate over the right solution to the experts. however, i will immediately dismiss rule changing or score changing of preexisting entries on any track. changing rules in the middle was tried by old tg and created a mess, lets learn from that lesson and not continue the mistake of changing rules. clarify rules sure, but when a tracks rules are deemed no good make a new track dont modify the old one. likewise, old scores can be removed (entire point of dispute) but i dont believe they should be modified unless theres very thorough proof, but in those cases of thorough proof a resubmission would suffice
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  3. 09-01-2019, 07:29 PM
    It might help to consider why Twin Galaxies scoreboards are here in the first place, and what it means to have different performances ranked against each other on the same track.

    A set of rules should help us make sure such comparisons are fair - in this case, the rules were not explicit enough to maintain this. Major oversight. Unfortunately, as a community, all we can do is attempt to draw attention to such things when they come to our attention, and try to fix them as soon as possible, ideally minimising casualties along the way, and certainly with the best long term intentions in mind.

    But then we surely must consider how we get back to the original goal of saying the #1 score was a "better" performance than #2, etc.

    I'd have thought this was fundamental to any ranking system.

    If that's not the primary goal of the scoreboard, or if people consider other factors to be more important, then please say so here.
    Clearly, constructively and with direct relevance to the issue here - to that point, I'm locking my recent wall post, it's just descending into a shouting match, and isn't helping. I apologise.

    In my opinion, and the core of my argument is that Doron's performance should not be considered #1 above Travis Warnell's & Koos van Dyk's performances.

    This is just my opinion - feel free to tear it apart - but it's based on the following...

    • the *assumption that Travis/Koos used what was default in 0.106, i.e. 1 starting life
    • Travis/Koos *therefore gained approx 29k points from the main part of the game
    • Travis/Koos *therefore gained only 10k bonus at the end for remaining lives

    (the same applies to the other two 0.106 scores, but moving on...)

    • Doron did start with 3 lives.
    • Doron gained approx 23k points from the main part of the game
    • Doron gained 20k more bonus than Travis/Koos not based on better gameplay, but due to different internal settings (based on the previously mentioned *assumption).

    * the assumption can be debated, but I believe it to be the most likely. It uses the same logic that led Doron to believe his score was OK - they all used what they believed to be default.
  4. 09-01-2019, 11:29 PM
    After thinking about this a bit more, I've reconsidered my position.

    Although my recommended rule and score modifications would fix the track (giving all players the same bonus point potential) and scoreboard (putting this score into third place), I see that the only realistic thing to do is make a new track. This track's scoreboard will never have true integrity, due to the dubious verification method, known only as "INP". In all likelihood, no INPs of the scoreboard's games exist.

    Time to make a decent track, and relegate the old one to the past.

    Mr Gronski's score could be the inaugural record of the new track, and hopefully be the basis of a healthy & growing scoreboard.
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  5. 09-02-2019, 09:53 PM
    Was about to post this in Travis's very recent submission, which makes life interesting...! But figured it may be more relevant here. It does repeat some old ground though, sorry about that!

    This was going to be my closing point, but screw it, it's going up top because I think you'll all like this one...
    I suggest we petition admin (with sugar on top) to waive any CR penalties that may be applied as a result - because it's all been a bit of a mess brought about initially by the inadequate rule set.

    Now... all a new track would need (what the existing tracks have lacked) is explicit detail - that way you can use any version of WolfMAME, users of earlier versions just would need to make some internal setting adjustments to be rule compliant. We could do that - we'd have a home for these two submissions.

    However... and I fear I am in the minority here, but my preference would be to NOT create a new track, and just tighten up the rules in the existing tracks - because remember there are four or them suffering the same lack of internal setting detail, with 12 previous 0.106 scores in total, which new tracks will render obsolete.

    Surely by now there's consensus that existing 0.106 scores used 1 starting life. Enshrine that in the rules, like it should have been from the start.

    Also, while it would be neat if the MAME settings matched the arcade, that's really not necessary, is it?
    And TG is already littered with cases where there are mismatched settings between the two platforms.

    And remember, no matter which course we take, there'd still be a reasonable argument for rejecting Doron's score (and now Travis's latest) anyway!

    So which is the path that is most streamlined & efficient, and least traumatic?
    My suggestion (and I'm happy for arguments against, that's why we're here!) - uphold the dispute against Doron's score, and reject this one.

    Then, once there are no open submissions in any of the tracks, edit the rules across all four ptblank tracks to explicitly state:

    Internal Setting
    Life: 1

    Let's be clear here - this needs to happen regardless.
    And it protects the 12 existing scores, at the expense of just one score... well, I guess it's two now.

    But we already know those two scores will be replaced in quick time as there's current active competition - just look at the back & forth submissions between Travis & Doron! I mean it's game on!

    Ahh look, that's true even if we set up new tracks - it's all sorts of exciting!
  6. 10-07-2019, 05:31 AM
    In order to solve this problem,I have founded four new tracks for this game with CLEAR set of rules (3 lives).
    They're to be found in the new track market place tab. You can donate and become a co-founder of these tracks.
  7. 12-06-2019, 12:38 AM
    Please find the INP file of Travis Warnell's 3rd place performance as well as Koos van Dyk's 4th place performance for analysis....

    sr01091248977g2156_POINT BLANK - TRAINING - KVD - 39574.zip
    Jace Hall
    Head Custodian
  8. 12-06-2019, 12:56 AM
    Quote Originally Posted by Jace Hall
    Please find the INP file of Travis Warnell's 3rd place performance as well as Koos van Dyk's 4th place performance for analysis....
    Hi Jace sorry is there an inp we can look at or are you asking someone to find these?
  9. 12-06-2019, 12:58 AM
    the original submitter has since created a new track and submitted there score to that track, cant we just close this dispute now?
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