TI-99 Questionable Scores...

  1. TI-99 Questionable Scores...

    09-18-2019, 07:48 PM
    So there are some Parsec and TI-Invader scores that seem very questionable, as even the programmers of Parsec claimed to only get around 70,000, while there is a score on there well above that at 1M + points, with other submissions at around 40k.

    Here is the link to the Parsec scores:
    https://www.twingalaxies.com/game/pa...a/ntsc-points/

    On the TI-Invaders scores the same person has a similar suspicious score of 20,949 with no evidence again and the next highest score being 6,445.

    Here are the TI-Invaders scores:
    https://www.twingalaxies.com/game/ti-invaders/ti-99-4a/ntsc-points/

    Both are verified by Video, both submitted on the same day, but I am unable to locate either video submission to view, does anyone know who to talk to about seeing the submission? or is anyone able to look into this at Twin Galaxies and verify their scores internally, they just seem unreal and with no evidence I absolutely do not believe the scores at this time.

    I want to believe these scores but after playing both games I find it extremely hard to believe especially without any video proof readily available.

    Thanks in Advance everyone.
    Last edited by reidman445; 09-18-2019 at 07:59 PM.
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  2. 09-18-2019, 10:31 PM
    Quote Originally Posted by reidman445 View Post
    So there are some Parsec and TI-Invader scores that seem very questionable, as even the programmers of Parsec claimed to only get around 70,000, while there is a score on there well above that at 1M + points, with other submissions at around 40k.

    Here is the link to the Parsec scores:
    https://www.twingalaxies.com/game/pa...a/ntsc-points/

    On the TI-Invaders scores the same person has a similar suspicious score of 20,949 with no evidence again and the next highest score being 6,445.

    Here are the TI-Invaders scores:
    https://www.twingalaxies.com/game/ti...a/ntsc-points/

    Both are verified by Video, both submitted on the same day, but I am unable to locate either video submission to view, does anyone know who to talk to about seeing the submission? or is anyone able to look into this at Twin Galaxies and verify their scores internally, they just seem unreal and with no evidence I absolutely do not believe the scores at this time.

    I want to believe these scores but after playing both games I find it extremely hard to believe especially without any video proof readily available.

    Thanks in Advance everyone.
    Not only are your concerns valid, they're likely 100% accurate.

    What is extraordinarily likely:
    -> That these scores are almost certainly BS. Whether they're BS because people have been dishonest, or because someone entered the score wrong into the database is irrelevant as far as I'm concerned.
    -> That there is no video in existence at which you or anyone else may look.
    -> You will most certainly hear someone pipe up real soon, "do you have proof that the score is fake?", and then begin to exhibit hostile indignation, as if you've personally offended their mother.
    -> You will then realize that the only proof that it was fake in these situations would be the videos, which do not exist, and therein lies your paradox.

    Welcome to TwinGalaxies! The good news is that the community is working tirelessly to ferret out garbage scores like these, and hopefully, something will ultimately be done about them. We do have a robust dispute system in place (likely the best anywhere), however, even our dispute process will involve people chiming in with the excuses above, formed into questions like "Do you have proof?" etc., while others will say, "but that's just the way it's always been done", as if that is justification for a BS score to remain on the scoreboard, and the score will likely remain even if it were officially disputed.

    What would really be nice is if these folks who allegedly performed the scores actually came on and defended them. Something tells me that such a scenario is highly unlikely.
    Last edited by Garrett Holland; 09-18-2019 at 10:33 PM. Reason: typo
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  3. 09-18-2019, 11:21 PM
    Thanks for the explanation, It seems to me what you are saying is "Yes, the scores are most likely bogus, with no evidence and no way to access it" and "Yes, people suck and will defend bullshit scores".

    Is there absolutely nothing we can do to dispute the scores?
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  4. 09-19-2019, 12:18 AM
    Quote Originally Posted by reidman445 View Post
    Thanks for the explanation, It seems to me what you are saying is "Yes, the scores are most likely bogus, with no evidence and no way to access it" and "Yes, people suck and will defend bullshit scores".

    Is there absolutely nothing we can do to dispute the scores?
    While some people do suck, I can say from my experience that nearly every member here who defends the historical record regardless of its veracity does so not necessarily because they suck, but because they're conditioned by their tenure and simply have a different, yet outdated perspective, and even perhaps an extraordinarily low standard for the term "legitimate".

    To answer your question: Simply put, yes. When a member reaches a credibility rating of 4,000, they may open dispute cases presenting their arguments and evidence in favor of score removal. This act initiates a community dialogue where all other members regardless of credibility rating may offer their supporting, opposing, or neutral input, including additional evidence should any exist. Each member may also anonymously vote on the dispute being valid. After this arduous process, one of two conclusions will be made:

    1. The dispute is considered valid and the score removed *OR* when appropriate, moved to a more appropriate track.
    2. The dispute remains open indefinitely leaving a historical record of all the arguments made regarding the veracity of the submission.

    As the site CEO has previously advised, this being done can in some occasions actually strengthen the validity of the submission, in that the score withstood an additional round of scrutiny and *still* held up.

    Hope that helps.
    Last edited by Garrett Holland; 09-19-2019 at 12:20 AM. Reason: Typos
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  5. 09-19-2019, 03:52 AM
    Agreed with everything that Garrett said. Not having any video evidence for the members to see on old scores is the most devaluing factor of the TG scoreboard.

    I think the explenation @JaceHall gave in one of the State of the Galaxies videos regarding the tapes TG does have in possession, was that it would be really hard to go through all the tapes (some are unlabeled)and transform them into digital format from a financial perspective. This is something that I 100% understand, as the management would rather spent the resources on developing the future of the site, not the past.

    However, what I don't agree on is the level of evidence some members think the disputes require. So what if some impossible score doesn't have a submission video available; if a person can prove the score is impossible to achieve, thats all the evidence thats needed.

    I previously noted some really hard to believe times on a racing game (in fact, impossible), and the answers I got were in the lines of "well can you prove there is not a short cut or a glitch that you haven't discovered". Well I do not have a source code of the game or anything from the developers. BUT, I sure can demonstrate with a gameplay video why the scores are impossible, that there are no "secret" shortcuts to be found, and that you can't be 30 secs faster than other scores on a track that takes around 1 min. 15 sec. for others to complete!

    The thing is, no matter how thorough I would make the video; the mostly likely outcome would be that it's not "conclusive enough". You would literally need a letter from the game creator that a score is impossible before some members here would believe it, that's the sad reality.
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  6. 09-19-2019, 11:40 AM
    We end up in the challenging spot where most of the existing scores in the database from the pre-TGSAP days are likely valid, and just wiping them takes away a lot of competitive gaming history. But we know there are a number that are not legitimate, but without video, it becomes hard to disprove them. And then there are those scores that seem impossible, but yet were accomplished due to some combination of incredible skill and strategies that few people know. We've seen this latter part happen in the past - scores that people were insisting were impossible, only for someone to find a strategy that allowed them to actually beat the existing record.

    The best strategy for dealing with these questionable scores is to determine if there are limitations in the game that prevent the score from being reached legitimately. That tactic is the one that's most often successful. Perhaps a hard limit on the score that prevents going above a certain value, or a kill screen, or game scoring being in such a way that you know a valid score has to have certain values (such if all points are awarded in multiples of 100, a score that does not end in 00 can't be valid).
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  7. 09-19-2019, 11:54 AM
    And while I've only skimmed it, here's a video of 25,501 points in TI Invaders in an emulator running a bit slow - so while not itself truly a valid score, I think can show it's not unrealistic for someone to reach that skill level.

    That Parsec score though... I'm wondering where the difficulty tops out in the game to see if it's truly marathonable, which is what that score suggests would have to be possible.
  8. 09-19-2019, 12:49 PM
    While looking into the Parsec scores on the TI-99/4A specifically, the top score seems so drastically different from the second place score, and after researching that even the devs (knowing everything about the patterns and tricks) were only able to get 70k beating the second place spot, the first place seems highly iilligitimate, I don't have enough points to dispute, but if either of you two were willing, I would put in the time to research the possibility of a real score.


    Quote Originally Posted by GibGirl
    We end up in the challenging spot where most of the existing scores in the database from the pre-TGSAP days are likely valid, and just wiping them takes away a lot of competitive gaming history. But we know there are a number that are not legitimate, but without video, it becomes hard to disprove them. And then there are those scores that seem impossible, but yet were accomplished due to some combination of incredible skill and strategies that few people know. We've seen this latter part happen in the past - scores that people were insisting were impossible, only for someone to find a strategy that allowed them to actually beat the existing record.
    The best strategy for dealing with these questionable scores is to determine if there are limitations in the game that prevent the score from being reached legitimately. That tactic is the one that's most often successful. Perhaps a hard limit on the score that prevents going above a certain value, or a kill screen, or game scoring being in such a way that you know a valid score has to have certain values (such if all points are awarded in multiples of 100, a score that does not end in 00 can't be valid).
  9. 09-19-2019, 02:29 PM
    Quote Originally Posted by reidman445 View Post
    While looking into the Parsec scores on the TI-99/4A specifically, the top score seems so drastically different from the second place score, and after researching that even the devs (knowing everything about the patterns and tricks) were only able to get 70k beating the second place spot, the first place seems highly iilligitimate, I don't have enough points to dispute, but if either of you two were willing, I would put in the time to research the possibility of a real score.
    If you can conduct the due diligence necessary and build a case beyond that which already leads me to strongly believe this score is a total crock of excrement (by my estimation, this dude would have had to play for 6.09 hours to achieve 1.1M ... furthermore, this same person has some *VERY* questionable scores on other tracks as well *COUGH COUGH AIR-SEA BATTLE COUGH COUGH*), then I'll open the dispute for you. Simply PM me the arguments, evidence, and rationale as you develop them, and I'll make sure to include them in the dispute should I decide at that point that opening the dispute won't make me look like more of a doofus than I already make myself look like on a daily basis.
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  10. 09-20-2019, 01:07 PM
    Just a quick reminder:
    - multiple people arrive at the site, exclaim a bunch of scores are impossible and then go on to surpass those "impossible" scores.
    - seasoned TG submitters sometimes look at other scores, exclaim they can't be possible and then go on to surpass those "impossible" scores.
    - developers rarely test their games the way seasoned gamers do.
    I'd rather be last on every game than throw my time away chasing only one score.
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