TI-99 Questionable Scores...

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  1. TI-99 Questionable Scores...

    09-18-2019, 07:48 PM
    So there are some Parsec and TI-Invader scores that seem very questionable, as even the programmers of Parsec claimed to only get around 70,000, while there is a score on there well above that at 1M + points, with other submissions at around 40k.

    Here is the link to the Parsec scores:
    https://www.twingalaxies.com/game/pa...a/ntsc-points/

    On the TI-Invaders scores the same person has a similar suspicious score of 20,949 with no evidence again and the next highest score being 6,445.

    Here are the TI-Invaders scores:
    https://www.twingalaxies.com/game/ti-invaders/ti-99-4a/ntsc-points/

    Both are verified by Video, both submitted on the same day, but I am unable to locate either video submission to view, does anyone know who to talk to about seeing the submission? or is anyone able to look into this at Twin Galaxies and verify their scores internally, they just seem unreal and with no evidence I absolutely do not believe the scores at this time.

    I want to believe these scores but after playing both games I find it extremely hard to believe especially without any video proof readily available.

    Thanks in Advance everyone.
    Last edited by reidman445; 09-18-2019 at 07:59 PM.
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  2. 09-18-2019, 10:31 PM
    Quote Originally Posted by reidman445 View Post
    So there are some Parsec and TI-Invader scores that seem very questionable, as even the programmers of Parsec claimed to only get around 70,000, while there is a score on there well above that at 1M + points, with other submissions at around 40k.

    Here is the link to the Parsec scores:
    https://www.twingalaxies.com/game/pa...a/ntsc-points/

    On the TI-Invaders scores the same person has a similar suspicious score of 20,949 with no evidence again and the next highest score being 6,445.

    Here are the TI-Invaders scores:
    https://www.twingalaxies.com/game/ti...a/ntsc-points/

    Both are verified by Video, both submitted on the same day, but I am unable to locate either video submission to view, does anyone know who to talk to about seeing the submission? or is anyone able to look into this at Twin Galaxies and verify their scores internally, they just seem unreal and with no evidence I absolutely do not believe the scores at this time.

    I want to believe these scores but after playing both games I find it extremely hard to believe especially without any video proof readily available.

    Thanks in Advance everyone.
    Not only are your concerns valid, they're likely 100% accurate.

    What is extraordinarily likely:
    -> That these scores are almost certainly BS. Whether they're BS because people have been dishonest, or because someone entered the score wrong into the database is irrelevant as far as I'm concerned.
    -> That there is no video in existence at which you or anyone else may look.
    -> You will most certainly hear someone pipe up real soon, "do you have proof that the score is fake?", and then begin to exhibit hostile indignation, as if you've personally offended their mother.
    -> You will then realize that the only proof that it was fake in these situations would be the videos, which do not exist, and therein lies your paradox.

    Welcome to TwinGalaxies! The good news is that the community is working tirelessly to ferret out garbage scores like these, and hopefully, something will ultimately be done about them. We do have a robust dispute system in place (likely the best anywhere), however, even our dispute process will involve people chiming in with the excuses above, formed into questions like "Do you have proof?" etc., while others will say, "but that's just the way it's always been done", as if that is justification for a BS score to remain on the scoreboard, and the score will likely remain even if it were officially disputed.

    What would really be nice is if these folks who allegedly performed the scores actually came on and defended them. Something tells me that such a scenario is highly unlikely.
    Last edited by Garrett Holland; 09-18-2019 at 10:33 PM. Reason: typo
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  3. 09-18-2019, 11:21 PM
    Thanks for the explanation, It seems to me what you are saying is "Yes, the scores are most likely bogus, with no evidence and no way to access it" and "Yes, people suck and will defend bullshit scores".

    Is there absolutely nothing we can do to dispute the scores?
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  4. 09-19-2019, 12:18 AM
    Quote Originally Posted by reidman445 View Post
    Thanks for the explanation, It seems to me what you are saying is "Yes, the scores are most likely bogus, with no evidence and no way to access it" and "Yes, people suck and will defend bullshit scores".

    Is there absolutely nothing we can do to dispute the scores?
    While some people do suck, I can say from my experience that nearly every member here who defends the historical record regardless of its veracity does so not necessarily because they suck, but because they're conditioned by their tenure and simply have a different, yet outdated perspective, and even perhaps an extraordinarily low standard for the term "legitimate".

    To answer your question: Simply put, yes. When a member reaches a credibility rating of 4,000, they may open dispute cases presenting their arguments and evidence in favor of score removal. This act initiates a community dialogue where all other members regardless of credibility rating may offer their supporting, opposing, or neutral input, including additional evidence should any exist. Each member may also anonymously vote on the dispute being valid. After this arduous process, one of two conclusions will be made:

    1. The dispute is considered valid and the score removed *OR* when appropriate, moved to a more appropriate track.
    2. The dispute remains open indefinitely leaving a historical record of all the arguments made regarding the veracity of the submission.

    As the site CEO has previously advised, this being done can in some occasions actually strengthen the validity of the submission, in that the score withstood an additional round of scrutiny and *still* held up.

    Hope that helps.
    Last edited by Garrett Holland; 09-19-2019 at 12:20 AM. Reason: Typos
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  5. 09-19-2019, 03:52 AM
    Agreed with everything that Garrett said. Not having any video evidence for the members to see on old scores is the most devaluing factor of the TG scoreboard.

    I think the explenation @JaceHall gave in one of the State of the Galaxies videos regarding the tapes TG does have in possession, was that it would be really hard to go through all the tapes (some are unlabeled)and transform them into digital format from a financial perspective. This is something that I 100% understand, as the management would rather spent the resources on developing the future of the site, not the past.

    However, what I don't agree on is the level of evidence some members think the disputes require. So what if some impossible score doesn't have a submission video available; if a person can prove the score is impossible to achieve, thats all the evidence thats needed.

    I previously noted some really hard to believe times on a racing game (in fact, impossible), and the answers I got were in the lines of "well can you prove there is not a short cut or a glitch that you haven't discovered". Well I do not have a source code of the game or anything from the developers. BUT, I sure can demonstrate with a gameplay video why the scores are impossible, that there are no "secret" shortcuts to be found, and that you can't be 30 secs faster than other scores on a track that takes around 1 min. 15 sec. for others to complete!

    The thing is, no matter how thorough I would make the video; the mostly likely outcome would be that it's not "conclusive enough". You would literally need a letter from the game creator that a score is impossible before some members here would believe it, that's the sad reality.
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  6. 09-19-2019, 11:40 AM
    We end up in the challenging spot where most of the existing scores in the database from the pre-TGSAP days are likely valid, and just wiping them takes away a lot of competitive gaming history. But we know there are a number that are not legitimate, but without video, it becomes hard to disprove them. And then there are those scores that seem impossible, but yet were accomplished due to some combination of incredible skill and strategies that few people know. We've seen this latter part happen in the past - scores that people were insisting were impossible, only for someone to find a strategy that allowed them to actually beat the existing record.

    The best strategy for dealing with these questionable scores is to determine if there are limitations in the game that prevent the score from being reached legitimately. That tactic is the one that's most often successful. Perhaps a hard limit on the score that prevents going above a certain value, or a kill screen, or game scoring being in such a way that you know a valid score has to have certain values (such if all points are awarded in multiples of 100, a score that does not end in 00 can't be valid).
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  7. 11-04-2019, 07:23 AM
    Hi all,

    I just posted my attempt on Parsec played on real hardware and original game cartridge, posted here: https://www.twingalaxies.com/showthr...0=#post1060160

    Have over time looked at the current hi-score, a bit more than impressed - so to speak.

    But if you look at my video i make more than 100K in score before the end of level 4, if we say a level is color change of the ground. So the information in one of the post that you have to reach level 15 before getting close to 1000K seems a bit off. The problem when reaching level +3 is the laser, you have only a few shots in a row - otherwise your laser will overheat.

    So do i think it´s possible to beat the #1 record, yes, in the near future.

    Do i think the current #1 is real, well maybe, i think they don´t remember the precise way they reached that score...

    But it would be nice to see the video that seems to be the proof, not just for fun / proof - but also to learn how they did it.


    Brgds

    LFS
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  8. 11-26-2019, 01:54 AM
    Hi all,

    Just to follow up on the progress, on my Parsec journey reaching for 1 million.

    As mentioned in my last post, in this tread, I don’t think that the #1 Parsec score is imaginary but the way that the score was made is probably not completely true.

    I have now reached 740K in around one hour of play, so no need to plan several hours or whole days to reach the million - as mentioned on the web / this tread.

    Still to come are “ships flying backwards and speeds so fast that’s impossible to manage” - could be the next level, no one knows...

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  9. 11-28-2019, 09:49 PM
    for what its worth douglass has really high scores on atari as well, so i asked around, and apparently he's respected. when scores fall more under "too good to be true that score is so hard" as opposed to truly impossible we have no choice but to take reputation into account. there are a few people who when i see a score 10x better than anyone else and zero proof to match, due to their other actions i have instant strong doubt. however, considering douglass to my knowledge has zero scores proven false (cheaters normally screw up at least once and have a fake digit somewhere, even if they explain it and dont get banned, we still see they had a fake score), so considering he doesnt even have a single provable fake score and his reputation is respected i do believe in giving him the benefit of the doubt

    note: i'm not just a suck up. i have no problem saying when i wont give someone the benefit of the doubt. but for now, even though i know nothing of douglass first hand, people that i respect have told me they respect him, and like i say all his scores are theoretically possible, so i do think benefit of the doubt applies
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