Post Verdict Dispute Discussion: Jeremy Young - Arcade - Donkey Kong - Points [Hammer Allowed] - Player: Billy L Mitchell - Score: 1,062,800

  1. 11-07-2019, 11:11 AM
    Just heard that Billy's score's is going back up on Guinness??? WTF??
    @jase hall???
    How is this even possible??
  2. 11-07-2019, 12:09 PM
    They blinked.

    I guess Mitchell rolled them. Do you have any details? I saw a reference to 'scores' too, but I'm not clear if it's just Perfect Pac-Man. Since that score was removed as part of a comprehensive score removal penalty, I always felt it was possible they would elect to recognize the score anyway. The only way the removed DK scores are reflected at Guinness is with the First Million on DK - if Guinness truly values their partnerships with trusted "scorekeeping" organizations like TG, they shouldn't be doing anything with the 1.047 million, which was the basis for that distinction.

    Besides, as I made clear in my own correspondence to Guinness, that score has been renounced by Mitchell as a verified score in his own Evidence Package. So with TG's determination and Mitchell's "defence," there's no reason to restore the First Million, and it should rightly fall to Steve Wiebe.
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  3. 11-08-2019, 12:49 AM
    I've quietly heard this "Guinness is reinstating Billy's scores" rumor before. I never repeated it because it was never properly sourced (it seemed to be originating from Team Billy themselves), and I've been skeptical for a number of reasons. Why would Guinness even acknowledge a legal threat at all? Why would they care about a dead-on-arrival lawsuit of lies? Why would they care about making Walter Day or Billy Mitchell happy? Why would they risk giving an invitation to any yahoo off the street to sue them over alleged world records? Regardless of the speculation now, the more and more time passes since the September legal threat, the less likely it seems that Guinness will do anything they haven't already done. And it's not clear to me whether this now public rumor (which Dwayne Richard attributes to Jace Hall) is a "This is definitely a thing that's happening," or just speculation on what could end up happening which Dwayne heard and is now running with. Bottom line: I'll believe it when I see it.

    Reinstating the 1.047m DK score (i.e., "first million") would be complete crazy town at this point. That score is nothing but lies, all the way down. If we were to talk possibilities, I could maybe see Guinness offering a settlement to reinstate perfect Pac-Man (and only perfect Pac-Man), partly on the basis of the witness statements from Funspot, and partly on the authority of Walter Day, who has worked with Guinness before. But Guinness wouldn't just give that away for free in the midst of a legal threat. It would be part of a package deal: You get this and you agree not to sue for anything else. And that would depend on whether Mister "Never Surrender" would accept the offer. No agreement, no dice.

    EDIT: I would strikethrough the claim that Dwayne attributed the rumor to Jace, but my attempts to do so aren't working, so I'll leave the text as is. As explained below, while Jace was the only person Dwayne named in his video, and while Jace contacted Dwayne discussing the matter, they both agree it was more of a speculative conversation asking "What would the reaction be?" And Dwayne, while streaming off-the-cuff yesterday, worded everything a bit poorly. (Note also how Dwayne's wording characterizes it as a foregone conclusion, which suggests confidence in direct knowledge, but they both agree that's not actually the case.) For my part, I can confirm again that this rumor predates their conversation.
    Last edited by ersatz_cats; 11-08-2019 at 10:39 AM.
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  4. 11-08-2019, 01:06 AM
    Oh, and before anybody does a search and makes a big deal over what they find, Billy Mitchell's name does still appear on the Guinness website. Specifically, this page refers to him and his 1999 Pac-Man score:

    https://www.guinnessworldrecords.com...records-46028/

    But that's not a current acknowledgment of a world record. That's a daily digest, posted on the date listed. Billy's Pac-Man, which at the time was considered a world record, was tied into some news story about Saturn's moon. Here's the same article on Internet Archive from 2012:

    https://web.archive.org/web/20121128...records-46028/

    There were no captures from between last year's dispute verdict and now, but I'm pretty confident no editing was done on this old daily digest. In other words, the reference wasn't removed and then reinstated.

    The page you would want to keep an eye on, which used to be the home of "First perfect score on Pac-Man", and which currently leads to an error page, is here:

    https://www.guinnessworldrecords.com...e-for-pac-man/
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  5. 11-08-2019, 03:01 AM
    Quote Originally Posted by ersatz_cats View Post
    And it's not clear to me whether this now public rumor (which Dwayne Richard attributes to Jace Hall) is a "This is definitely a thing that's happening," or just speculation on what could end up happening which Dwayne heard and is now running with. Bottom line: I'll believe it when I see it.
    Actually Dwayne does not attribute it to me. Tipster erroneously attempts to attribute it to me in his video based on Dwayne's video.

    I attempted to offer tipster a correction:

    Jace Hall
    6 hours ago
    This report is not accurate

    -----


    Tipster
    4 hours ago (edited)
    I responded to your other comments. But to respond to this, I do not feel that my reporting was inaccurate. I merely showed Dwayne's statements and presented several questions based on them. I appreciate your feedback. But I respectfully disagree with your observation.
    -----


    Jace Hall
    3 hours ago
    @Tipster at 3:53 in the video you literally say "It was revealed during that conversation that Guinness is actually going to be restoring Billy Mitchell's scores..." - This is 100% not true or accurate. You have pulled this "fact" out of thin air with no substantiation. This was not discussed or revealed on my call with Dwayne, or any other call I have been on. This comment is the specific section I was referring to and hoping you would edit out because the reporting here is inaccurate. Please listen to Dwayne's statements, and then listen to what you said in the video. Dwayne made no such statement I told him any such thing. I appreciate that you disagree but, Im not sure how you can justify that disagreement? Up to you to correct or not - I appreciate you at least allowing me to provide additional information.
    -----


    Tipster
    3 hours ago
    I pinned your comment to allow the audience to see your clarification. But I have no intention of editing the video as I see no issue with it as is. Again...I appreciate your feedback. But I disagree.
    -----


    Jace Hall
    2 hours ago (edited)
    @Tipster I appreciate the pin but not sure how you can disagree.


    Let me print the full literal unaltered word-for-word statement that comes directly out of your mouth:


    "He had a conversation on the phone with Jace Hall. He discussed this situation with him and it was revealed during that conversation that Guinness is actually going to be restoring Billy Mitchell's scores." - This is 100% a fabrication on your part. It's completely false. Was not said and did not happen.


    In Dwayne's video he says no such thing, and I definitely did not reveal or discuss this statement that you made. I am not sure why you want to misrepresent this instead of correcting. The error in reporting is plain as day and not debatable based on the Dwayne video you directly show.


    It's confusing to me why you are resistant as I always had the impression that you were interested in factual depiction. However it is your show/video so of course you can do what you want.


    Please know that I have tried to be very specific and exact in the information I have provided and if you choose not to correct your video it will continue to push out some false information to your viewership. Up to you.


    I do appreciate your efforts overall regardless.


    Thank you.
    Jace Hall
    Head Custodian
    www.TwinGalaxies.com
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  6. 11-08-2019, 03:17 AM
    For reference, this is how Dwayne characterizes the exchange in his video:

    “I’m tired of this **** man, there’s no f*cking point, it’s just - no one f*cking cares, and it’s irrelevant, it’s just a f*cking video game score, and whatcha call it, ah, Guinness is actually going to put f*cking Bill’s score back up. Jace contacted me yesterday night, or a couple of days ago, and said ‘how are people going to react’ - I don’t f*cking know, I don’t f*cking care”
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  7. 11-08-2019, 03:42 AM
    Quote Originally Posted by The Evener View Post
    For reference, this is how Dwayne characterizes the exchange in his video:

    “I’m tired of this **** man, there’s no f*cking point, it’s just - no one f*cking cares, and it’s irrelevant, it’s just a f*cking video game score, and whatcha call it, ah, Guinness is actually going to put f*cking Bill’s score back up. Jace contacted me yesterday night, or a couple of days ago, and said ‘how are people going to react’ - I don’t f*cking know, I don’t f*cking care”
    Dwayne responded to Tipster and clarified where he got his information see screenshot:

    Name:  Screen Shot 2019-11-08 at 4.39.55 AM.png
Views: 1209
Size:  77.3 KB
    Jace Hall
    Head Custodian
    www.TwinGalaxies.com
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  8. 01-16-2020, 08:45 PM
    Been a while and I'm just curious if there has been any update on this. I know litigation makes discussion about the case at hand not easy, so if that's the reason it's fallen silent I fully understand.
  9. 02-14-2020, 06:30 PM
    I wanted to include a post at classicarcadegaming.com that was shared with me earlier today.

    As we know, Mitchell has denied using MAME in the past for gaming, with the exception of gameplay on an ArcadePC cabinet in 2005 (which is still in fact a MAME set-up):

    DJEmergency Post #3145 - "X Cast" Interview with Billy Mitchell 13 February 2018 - 14:43 mark
    Mitchell: "My easy answer is that I never played it [Donkey Kong] on MAME, but I'll give you a more serious answer. When we were in California there was a company called "Arcade PC" by owned by Conway...The first time I ever played against Steve Wiebe was at the Classic Game Expo in 2005 or 4 in San Jose and that was on Conway's "Donkey Kong" and that was a MAME machine with a computer inside. So the fact is.. have I ever played MAME? If we push that kind of circumstance aside, the answer is no. Have I ever sat in front of a computer and played MAME? Not a chance, None."

    Thanks to posts from francoisadt, grinder2112 (see posts #86-89 as an example), and NickWalker (see post #71 and #73 as a recap), we've examined Mitchell's past use of MAME and general awareness about it. We established that Mitchell had direct experience with MAME stretching back to 1999 with an extended gaming session on an ArcadePC typet set-up, and NickWalker documented that Mitchell and Day were contacted directly about possible MAME INP abuse in the same year.

    Thanks to the digging of @francoisadt, he discovered a thread that shed further light on this issue.
    http://www.classicarcadegaming.com/f...ic,7330.0.html

    The original thread was entitled Billy Mitchells 1999 Pac Man achievement (November 15, 2007)
    http://www.classicarcadegaming.com/f...2.html#msg2272

    MDARULZ (Mark Alpiger): "When I talked a couple of times with Billy (the only times that I have via phone) around the turn of the Millenium, he said that he had actually proven this, by setting MAME to cheat mode, and used infinite lives to show that you needed the 240 dot count to advance past the splitscreen. BTW, he said that the next screen was the normal screen 1 in every way, except that the prize item line at the bottom right remained intact from the previous screen."

    The topic of advancing past the split screen in this way is revisited in 2016:
    http://www.classicarcadegaming.com/f...?topic=4449.30
    Last edited by The Evener; 02-14-2020 at 07:49 PM.
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  10. 02-15-2020, 04:35 AM
    I can't remember exactly but years back I shared within the TG and/or CAG forum one anecdote regarding Bill Mitchell, Chris Ayra and their efforts towards mastering "Burgertime". Note that I possibly deleted my CAG post of thread response but it might still be there somewhere.


    It was around the time that Bryan Wagner was setting the new world mark. They told me that they had been experimenting on MAME at the advanced levels and were between the 10-15 million range.


    There's no proof of this of course...they were very careful not to commit to anything in writing...but there is no doubt that Billy is well versed with MAME, maybe not WolfMAME but definitely the MAME of yesteryear.
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