Post Verdict Dispute Discussion: Jeremy Young - Arcade - Donkey Kong - Points [Hammer Allowed] - Player: Billy L Mitchell - Score: 1,062,800

  1. 05-14-2020, 01:49 AM
    Apollo Legend: Billy Mitchell Won't Be Sued (For Now)
    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=hVUr61L7UhY
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  2. 05-14-2020, 05:06 AM
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  3. 06-19-2020, 07:51 AM
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  4. 06-19-2020, 07:54 AM
    Face, meet desk.
    Lauren Tyler
    Eternal Champion of Ragol
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  5. 06-23-2020, 07:11 AM
    I am new to this site, and I cannot for the life of me figure out how to reply to Tim McVey's post found at https://www.twingalaxies.com/sprinte...itchell-scores
    Therefore, this is the most relevant place I can respond.

    Tim, in the beginning of your post, you claim "People think I hate Billy." Why do people think that? As someone who is friends with you on Facebook, let me be the first to answer: nearly every other post that wasn't political was about Billy Mitchell. There was a slew of memes making fun of him on your wall (ie posts to the effect of "Make America MAME Again") and walls of text about your feelings about him and how he cheated. You're a cool dude otherwise, but if you don't hate him like you claim, you damn sure have an unhealthy obsession with him. It's also quite convenient that after Billy was cleared by Guinness, all those hateful posts were deleted, but still no sign of you being a man and saying "sorry" to him.

    Now, was I "there" as you were? No. In fact, to this day, I've never stepped foot in an actual arcade. I grew up playing arcade compilations such as "Midway Arcade Treasures" on the PS2. I enjoy games casually, as I most likely will never have the talent or skill required to be on top of any game. I never grew up idolising any of you guys or aspiring to be on any leaderboard because that is an unrealistic goal for me. As a result, I never knew about Billy Mitchell (or you or anyone else) until Todd Rogers appeared on the Ben Heck Show and made me aware of that controversy. So why am I here, defending a man that I don't know and doesn't know me? To give a fresh perspective from someone who doesn't have all kinds of emotional ties like most here seem to have (you included).

    The dispute thread was started with two pieces of evidence: 1) the board swap video; and 2) "I heard it back in the day from a friend who heard it from his sister who heard it from her girlfriend who heard it from her cousin who heard it from a prostitute that Billy Mitchell cheated". I think it's clear the second bit of "evidence" can be thrown out entirely, as the OP never even bothered mentioning who he heard it from specifically or called them up to get a statement, but even if they did, people hear lots of things. Turns out, doesn't make it true just because someone opened their pie holes and said something. Now as for the board swap video: it it anomalous? Absolutely. I can't begin to imagine why that video exists. It serves no purpose, so I'm not sure why Billy decided to have that filmed. I do truly wish he would sack up and address why that video exists, as opposed to doing what he did and cowering out when asked about it. Having said that, what does the board swap video prove? How does a faked video show Billy cheated? It doesn't, at least as far as I'm aware. I've never heard one person correlate the existence of that video to him cheating. So my best guess (currently) for why it exists is maybe this was footage for King of Kong 2, or some other fake documentary. It's no surprise that the first film was just that, a movie. It may have been presented as a documentary, but just like with "reality" TV shows, it was staged. That could very easily explain why he would stage the board swap video, as sloppy as it was.

    Six months later, the first piece of real evidence arrives: the girder finger. Now we are getting somewhere! That only exists in MAME, so Billy cheated, right?! Well, hold your horses, buddy! What was interesting about that is in the dispute thread, it was proven that such anomaly exists between versions X and Y of MAME (don't remember the version numbers by heart, it's just not that important to me to commit to memory, but it's easy enough for anyone to find). If we look at when the three videos were filmed, there would be nothing I could say against the idea that the 1.05 and 1.06 million tapes were filmed using MAME, but the 1.04 million tape was filmed several months before version X of MAME (the first version to show the girder finger artifact) was ever released! This fact was brought up in the dispute thread before, but was subsequently buried by thousands of hateful anti-Billy comments and thus was never evaluated. So what explains that? Was Billy secretly a programmer on the MAME project this whole time, or is he a time traveller? That would be the only ways you could explain how the 1.04 million tape exhibits the same anomaly as a version of MAME from months into the future. Nevertheless, the community (and you, by extension), labelled this MAME footage without ever considering the full facts.

    You say Billy was given more than enough time to defend himself, but he was only given two months after the first real piece of evidence came out before he was deemed a cheater. The dispute thread had no time limit whatsoever to come up with actual evidence, but Billy was given a short and arbitrary time to explain his side. Now, put yourself in his shoes. Imagine being accused of something from years ago, and you have to defend yourself. If someone accused you of cheating, do you already have written statements prepared, just in case? Most likely not. So what did he have to do? Find the original equipment and send it out to be inspected and verified, find and scan receipts, find people who attended the events in question, track down said people and ask them to send him written and signed statements, and figure out a plausible defense or explanation as to why the girder finger exists. Do you really expect this to all happen in two months? How is it fair for the dispute to have NO evidence for six months, but Billy was expected to have everything done in two? At the very least, if you allow people to dispute scores at any time in the future no matter how old the scores are (which, for the record, I agree with), then you should also allow people who have been wrongly accused of cheating to submit evidence that clears their name no matter how long it takes. Does Billy have that chance to clear his name here?

    As for evidence from Billy, he did submit an entire packet of evidence to TG and Guinness in September of last year. That packet of evidence is publicly available (https://drive.google.com/file/d/1BMb...oQiuAdgcJ/view) and has been for the longest of time. Have you even taken a look at it? In addition to this, Guinness has done their own due diligence and came to the conclusion Billy is innocent after all. This investigation is independent of the evidence Billy provided. I encourage that evidence to be made public, and I don't ask that we just arbitrarily trust Guinness and their assessment, but their credibility is now on the line more than ever. Imagine the disaster it would be to their business to publicly defend a cheater. I doubt they would be willing to risk their reputation of a single dude, but I could be wrong. You might think it's because of the threat of a lawsuit, but that would only prove further that the conclusion that Billy Mitchell cheated is a false narrative. In the USA, there are laws against slander and libel, especially in cases where it impacts someone's ability to earn income. Whether you like his success or not, or whether you believe being a "celebrity" or "influencer" is a career or not, is entirely irrelevant; the fact is, Billy has made tons of income because of his records that were in question. As a result of being labelled a cheater, this directly impacts his ability to earn income. Billy has gone through lawful and legal means to clear his name. This is in contrast to others, such as the Immortal John Handcock, who abused the broken copyright system to silence his critics on YouTube. Has Billy abused the copyright system to take down the Apollo Legend videos?

    Finally, what can I add to all this? Some knowledge of electronics. If I pick up a random 100 ohm resistor, it has four colored bands on it. One brown, one black, and another brown band indicate that in a perfect world, this resistor would have 100 ohms of resistance. The fourth band, however, is gold. This indicates a +-5% tolerance, so in reality, assuming the resistor is free of defect, that 100 ohm resistor might read anywhere from 95 ohms to 105 ohms. Even though your electronics may work just fine, they are, in fact, far from perfect, unless you get industrial grade components where that +-5% might cause a machine to swing and kill your coworker. No arcade cabinet was ever manufactured with industrial grade components, so all machines are off spec by some amount. This is especially true for older components that are not just worn, but also were manufactured many years ago when tolerances were looser and components were less efficient. The "investigation" done by Jace Hall never took a look at what the impact of those looser tolerances are, nor what impact age may have on a board, nor what would happen if just one failed component were replaced with a modern equivalent. So how was the investigation enough to convince you Billy cheated when it raises more questions than it answers? The investigation was not complete; they did the bare minimum to find one tiny flaw that wouldn't exist in a perfect world and deemed that enough to destroy a man's reputation. I am willing to bet anything that part of the evidence found by Guinness involves a more thorough probing of the equipment than TG was ever willing to do, which will most likely reveal that in fact it comes down to something that basic as the tolerances of electronics, but that is purely speculation. Even if they do post that evidence, would that finally be enough to convince you he's innocent? I remember everyone saying "well, if he is, he should just play the games again and show he's capable". He's done so, several times on his Twitch channel. So after this evidence is released, will the goal post be moved again? "I won't believe he's innocent until Billy submits to a polygraph exam, a DNA test, and colonoscopy to determine if he cheated"
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  6. 06-23-2020, 07:48 AM
    A lot of careful research and analysis was done into this matter. It wasn't just a matter of 'there's something that only happens in MAME so that means it's fake.'

    Furthermore, two months is more than enough time for Billy to at least make a statement to say that he could prove that it's legit and then take the time to present his evidence.

    Also, your sarcasm at the end isn't helping your case either.
    Lauren Tyler
    Eternal Champion of Ragol
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  7. 06-23-2020, 08:07 AM
    "A lot of careful research and analysis was done into this matter."
    As someone who read every single page of the dispute thread, I'm well aware of the "research and analysis", and yet that still doesn't explain Billy Mitchell the Time Traveller, does it? And if it isn't about MAME, why does LITERALLY everyone continue with the narrative that it is? Because also notice, no one has thus far in the "careful research and analysis" been able to show even one frame of evidence in three videos to suggest he used MAME (under the assumption this would give him the benefit of using save states). Can you point me to that magic frame that shows he did use save states?
    Sure, he could have put out a statement in those two months, but would he have been given the chance to present his side if it took him this long to come up with what he has so far? No. So why bother making a statement when he could better use the time finding actual evidence.
    And I'm not here for any "case". Again, I don't know the guy, I don't have anything to gain by defending him. These are my observations, and my observations include the sarcasm because I find it absurd that no one is willing to listen to any side but the "Billy cheated" side. That time and time again, the goal posts kept getting moved around, originally from the two pieces of non-evidence, to the girder finger, to him playing live, to now we need more evidence. Again, I'm all for that evidence going public, but at some point, it's time for you guys to put down the pitchforks, reflect inward, and say "I'm sorry". I know that's a difficult thing to do, but even Tipster was able to congratulate Billy for being able to clear his name.
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  8. 06-23-2020, 08:13 AM
    Quote Originally Posted by sharkeylaser View Post
    I am new to this site, and I cannot for the life of me figure out how to reply to Tim McVey's post found at https://www.twingalaxies.com/sprinte...itchell-scores
    Therefore, this is the most relevant place I can respond.

    Tim, in the beginning of your post, you claim "People think I hate Billy." Why do people think that? As someone who is friends with you on Facebook, let me be the first to answer: nearly every other post that wasn't political was about Billy Mitchell. There was a slew of memes making fun of him on your wall (ie posts to the effect of "Make America MAME Again") and walls of text about your feelings about him and how he cheated. You're a cool dude otherwise, but if you don't hate him like you claim, you damn sure have an unhealthy obsession with him. It's also quite convenient that after Billy was cleared by Guinness, all those hateful posts were deleted, but still no sign of you being a man and saying "sorry" to him.
    Hi Sharkeylaser...Welcome to Twin Galaxies.

    All of that you mentioned does not surprise me. And be careful, he likes to edit or delete posts on those that disagree, or simply question or mock his own motives (even in a friendly way, eg."so...so...so...so"... haha...)

    He means well in spirit, but his rants and past temper tantrums are sometimes outright pathetic. ) In the end, him and some of his buddies are very vocal and outright jealous of Billy. For what reasons, I really do not have a clue why! People are who they are, and I do sometimes find it all VERY amusing actually! The Nibbler film (if you didnt watch it) IS VERY entertaining, and I would highly recommend it. Walter and Billy played their roles as well.

    In my eyes, Billy is just one man, with a 1980's haircut, who (with Walter's help) promoted himself to the hills, playing a 40 year old video game that less than 1% of all the gaming population actually do care about. Billy is interesting say to the least. Its a character, nothing else. Easy to see, if you have the pleasure of meeting him, one CAN read between the lines.

    If you do some research on the dispute itself here, you will find that Billy was never "accused" of cheating. He simply did not play on actual hardware. The punishment was harsh here, but justified in my opinion.

    Carry on... :)
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  9. 06-23-2020, 09:22 AM
    Hello @sharkeylaser,

    Welcome to Twin Galaxies.

    Your passion and viewpoint are appreciated. I believe that most of the information you seem to be looking for is within the dispute thread so perhaps you may have overlooked something and can find it later, but if there is any specific question you would like to ask, please feel free to do so. The Twin Galaxies community encourages discussion and is always interested in getting more relevant information on any matter that it is concerned with.

    If you have the time or interest in making a significant contribution, it would be very helpful if you (or anyone you can direct us to) could provide the community with any information that can definitively show how an unmodified original Donkey Kong Arcade PCB produces a direct feed recording to a VCR that displays all of the image characteristics and rasterization properties found in this particular video:

    vzaar-player

    Example of one of the of the image characteristics and rasterization properties found in this particular video:

    Name:  Screen Shot 2020-06-23 at 10.29.04 AM.png
Views: 138
Size:  315.6 KB

    If this could be simply demonstrated by someone it would disprove Jeremy Young's dispute claim assertions of it being impossible to do. TG would immediately reverse its position in relation to this assertion made by Jeremy Young.

    In theory, demonstrating this should not be that difficult. One would assume that it is just a matter of turning on an unmodified original Donkey Kong Arcade PCB and recording its output to a VCR.

    As many in the community know we have tried to accomplish this ourselves with extensive efforts and still can not seem to produce a direct feed recording to a VCR that displays all of the image characteristics and rasterization properties found in the above video. Several unrelated 3rd parties have tried on their own and also seem to have run into similar challenges.

    Here is an example of an unrelated 3rd party attempting to accomplish the goal even as recently as little over a month ago:

    SET UP - https://forums.arcade-museum.com/sho...&postcount=365
    RESULT - https://forums.arcade-museum.com/sho...&postcount=369

    It's now been over 2 years and we continue to welcome all new information that may help.

    For clarity, this specific matter has nothing to do with any evaluation of anyone's gameplay, or any person in general. The information that is being looked for is from a purely technical perspective.
  10. 06-23-2020, 07:36 PM
    Quote Originally Posted by sharkeylaser View Post
    Six months later, the first piece of real evidence arrives: the girder finger. Now we are getting somewhere! That only exists in MAME, so Billy cheated, right?! Well, hold your horses, buddy! What was interesting about that is in the dispute thread, it was proven that such anomaly exists between versions X and Y of MAME (don't remember the version numbers by heart, it's just not that important to me to commit to memory, but it's easy enough for anyone to find). If we look at when the three videos were filmed, there would be nothing I could say against the idea that the 1.05 and 1.06 million tapes were filmed using MAME, but the 1.04 million tape was filmed several months before version X of MAME (the first version to show the girder finger artifact) was ever released! This fact was brought up in the dispute thread before, but was subsequently buried by thousands of hateful anti-Billy comments and thus was never evaluated. So what explains that? Was Billy secretly a programmer on the MAME project this whole time, or is he a time traveller? That would be the only ways you could explain how the 1.04 million tape exhibits the same anomaly as a version of MAME from months into the future. Nevertheless, the community (and you, by extension), labelled this MAME footage without ever considering the full facts.

    From my examination of MAME versions, I can say that 0.35 < X <= 0.36. MAME 0.35 (July 4, 1999) does not have an option to overclock the cpu, but it's there by MAME 0.36 (March 22, 2000). There are 13 beta, and 2 release candidates in between.

    By setting the CPU to 99%, the apparent video refresh frequency is proportionally bumped from 60 to 60.606 Hz, as the board is driven by a single clock, multiplied for use by the CPU and video circuitry. Note that 99/100 is exactly 60/60.60606060606 (repeating). By MAME 0.85 (August 7, 2004), you can explicitly set the video refresh to 60.606 Hz instead of underclocking the cpu.

    The distinction between emulated video refreshes and dedicated arcade PCBs is broader than the girder finger, and arises out of the emulator's need to copy the emulated video memory to the host computer's actual video memory for display. The arcade PCB need only read that memory directly to produce a signal for the analog video output to the tube.

    If the emulated video refresh is 60.606 Hz, the familiar girder finger begins to appear. In fact, other slight variations from 60 Hz will produce different characteristic artifacts. I'm not sure if it meets the proper definition, but those artifacts are reminiscent of aliasing effects.

    Edited to add: CPU underclocking was brought up mid-March 2018, within the dispute thread.
    Last edited by grinder2112; 06-23-2020 at 08:14 PM. Reason: added relevant link
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