Post Verdict Dispute Discussion: Jeremy Young - Arcade - Donkey Kong - Points [Hammer Allowed] - Player: Billy L Mitchell - Score: 1,062,800

  1. 08-02-2020, 07:25 AM
    Quote Originally Posted by Barthax View Post
    Are you referring to Todd or Walter? You seem to be referencing Todd whereas mine (that you quoted) was definitely in reference to Walter.
    Yes, I just noticed that just now...re-reading your post.

    Im referring to Todd's timeline... I thought that is what the conversation WAS originally about, going back a few posts prior...
    His status as referee, at large, chief evangelist, etc.

    No idea how Walter got twisted into this...
    Last edited by Marcade; 08-02-2020 at 07:28 AM.
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  2. 08-02-2020, 07:26 AM
    Quote Originally Posted by OriginalPSP View Post
    I want to make some things clear.

    I'm only back here as time allows because Jace asked me personally to come by and add in my input to the Mitchell stuff.

    I am not here to argue with people who'd try to question me if I said the sky was blue. I am not here to discuss claims about me in a thread about another topic and person. I am not here to deal with "personal" beefs from people who don't even know me personally in the first place.

    I already discussed this with Jace as well. He made it clear that I won't have to for long should that start. Looks like he may have to keep to his word sooner than later.

    I have no dog in this hunt. I have no reason to be less than honest about anything relating to the Mitchell topics and incidents and issues close to him. Those who pay fair attention will see that every single thing I've ever said about this has either 1). Later been seen to be true by others first-hand or 2). I've been backed up by others that were around at the time.

    I've even told Jace to consider anything I say about Mitchell and related incidents to be my official statements and that I will sign a document under penalty of perjury if/when asked.

    I thank Barthax for being the sole person who could put his differences aside with me in the replies above to acknowledge their accuracy. That's all I'm here when I'm here for. To add context and info to this important topic for sake of accuracy.

    Let's all be adults. Let me reiterate in an attempt to get this thread back to the real world.

    As per Pete and David at the time, Todd was "no longer a referee" by the time of the supposed Boomers score. Hence my literally being given everything he was (supposed to be) doing at TG at the time of the switch. He was to take over Walter's powerless figurehead role verbatim, except maybe the shirt.

    The note about him possibly being "deputized" at times might have merit. But also irrelevant as neither he or Mitchell could have "deputized" him for Boomers. I'm certain that would require someone near the top at the time doing it first, but none of us were even made aware of that whole thing prior to them being there.

    I was only told of Morningdove's "witnessing" of it well after the fact.

    Let those comments sit for what they are.
    i understand often times we need witness account and peoples word, and thats you offered your word. i dont its childish, or arguing if the sky is blue to ask if you have any concrete proof or documention of your word. i'm asking for something that would help you if it exists. Its not like todd refed in secret, todd being the ref was exceedingly public and so the fact tg approves it certainly makes it look like at least after the fact that tg tacitly confirmed yes todd has the power and right. also tg had years and years they could've removed the record after knowing full well todd was the ref but never did. This is why, as useful as witness testimony, i think the claim that todd was invalid as a ref would benefit from some proof. I mean heck you yourself voted to approve the record, thats not some invalid tangent attack thats me pointing out tg authorities, yourself included at one point treated todds adjudciation of the score as completely valid, as such, i think its very fair now that your singing a different tune to request if theres anything else. I will of course compliment anyone who admits prior error, its not hypocriical and thers no shame in you now admitting that you made a mistake by approving his score, i'm not brinigng it up to bash you i'm brinign it up to point why i feel your new claims would benefit from some documentation
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  3. 08-02-2020, 07:29 AM
    Quote Originally Posted by Marcade View Post
    Yes, I just noticed that just now...re-reading your post.

    Im referring to Todd's timeline... I thought that is what the conversation WAS originally about, going back a few posts prior...
    His status as referee, at large, chief evangelist, etc.

    No idea how Walter got twisted into this...
    The inception of the Chief Evangelist role is what brought Walter into the conversation context.
    Lots of 1sts to be surpassed: what are you waiting for? Play the game, submit the score...
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  4. 08-02-2020, 07:33 AM
    there was semantics on what the word even means, both at large and in a tg sense. very interesting sematnics. but yes the real point is, was todd allowed to verify or not while he was chief evangelst. doesnt really matter what the dictionary says about chief evangelists or what other chief evangelists could do, all that matters is if he was tg authoirzed to ref or not while holding that title. that has become a pretty key point. and i might point out a strange one. i mean he did ref it, publicly, so the claim he couldnt when he did i'm having time following especially when theres evidence he veriifed other records while holding that title
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  5. 08-02-2020, 08:08 AM
    Quote Originally Posted by Snowflake View Post
    there was semantics on what the word even means, both at large and in a tg sense. very interesting sematnics. but yes the real point is, was todd allowed to verify or not while he was chief evangelst. doesnt really matter what the dictionary says about chief evangelists or what other chief evangelists could do, all that matters is if he was tg authoirzed to ref or not while holding that title. that has become a pretty key point. and i might point out a strange one. i mean he did ref it, publicly, so the claim he couldnt when he did i'm having time following especially when theres evidence he veriifed other records while holding that title
    It could be that Todd Rogers held the Chief Evangelist and Referee roles concurrently at that time, with the latter on a de facto basis. Roles in the context of volunteerism often become what people are willing to do for no pay.

    Do we know who entered the Boomers score into the database?
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  6. 08-02-2020, 08:38 AM
    Quote Originally Posted by benasselstine View Post
    It could be that Todd Rogers held the Chief Evangelist and Referee roles concurrently at that time, with the latter on a de facto basis. Roles in the context of volunteerism often become what people are willing to do for no pay.

    Do we know who entered the Boomers score into the database?
    Sadly all the "entered by / verified by" information was lost in a database transfer.
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  7. 08-02-2020, 10:37 AM
    Quote Originally Posted by benasselstine View Post
    It could be that Todd Rogers held the Chief Evangelist and Referee roles concurrently at that time, with the latter on a de facto basis. Roles in the context of volunteerism often become what people are willing to do for no pay.

    Do we know who entered the Boomers score into the database?
    What can be said for certain is that Todd's responsibilities changed on 1 March 2010 when he became Chief Evangelist, and was relieved from all referee duties as outlined by OriginalPSP and confirmed by the Wayback Machine. OriginalPSP also indicated that during phone calls about Mitchell's score from Mitchell et al., no one at the time mentioned Mahoney's role at Boomers, only Todd which OriginalPSP pointed out was problematic given the official responsibilities of the Chief Evangelist and Pete Bouvier's statement that Todd would have no adjudication responsibilities.

    In the article Split-Screen Man, more is said about the Boomer's scores and the problems the situation posed to TG referees:

    "David Nelson, who was chief referee at the time and told me he has no stance on whether or not Mitchell cheated, does remember controversy surrounding whether or not to accept the scores. He told me the referees discussed the issue for hours, and were particularly hung up on the fact that Mitchell had not allowed Twin Galaxies to arrange for an impartial referee.

    “When someone is going to set a world record of this caliber, really the procedure should be to contact Twin Galaxies, tell them of your intention, and we will work out how to get a referee to you to witness it, and the referee will be one of our choosing. Billy went ahead and selected his own referee to witness his score, and he did it in secret without anybody’s knowledge,” Nelson said. “It was a very difficult decision because none of us liked the circumstances but the decision came down to, you know, we’ll accept the score.”

    Nelson also described a tense conversation with Mitchell and Steve Sanders, Mitchell’s friend since their showdown at the Life magazine shoot, in which the two encouraged Nelson to accept the score with an ultimatum. “I didn’t like how I was being addressed and being told, ‘Yes, if you don’t accept this score, there’s going to be trouble.’ It’s hard to take that not as a threat, but I took it more as, well, he had plans. He had plans to make the score a big deal, and he had plans to announce it here, and if Twin Galaxies says they’re not going to take it, oh, that’s going to screw up all of his plans. But then I got from Steve Sanders, I got him telling me, ‘Hey, Dave, do the right thing.’ That didn’t sit well with me either. Anybody who comes to you and says, ‘Do the right thing,’ they don’t mean do the right thing. They mean do the right thing for them. Do what’s in it for them.”

    Patrick Scott Patterson, then the assistant chief referee, told me he heard a similar version of events from Nelson immediately after the confrontation took place. He also echoed the idea that at least some of the referees had reservations about accepting the scores, him included."

    https://egmnow.com/the-split-screen-man/

    I would add that Todd's recollection about how he became involved with Mitchell's Boomer event evolved as well.

    In the EGM article:

    "In a video recorded at Big Bang, he says, “There was no intent at the beginning to make any records. I went down there to shop for tarantulas.” Rogers collects spiders, and his shop of choice, Strictly Reptiles, is in Hollywood, Florida—close to Boomers but across the state from his home. In the Big Bang video, he goes on to reiterate that “nothing was arranged” but says he eventually goaded Mitchell into attempting a record.

    During our interview, Rogers told me that he drove down “primarily” to buy tarantulas. “I think Walter [Day] had mentioned something to me briefly beforehand,” he added. Day was no longer running Twin Galaxies by that point, so any communication would presumably have occurred in an unofficial context."

    Compare to what Todd said in the recent exhibit declarations. Take note how Todd apparently received "delegated authority" to officiate from the late Pete Bouvier, which conflicts with information we've just reviewed, including the controversy around score acceptance:

    "In late July of 2010, I contacted Pete Bouvier, the new owner of Twin Galaxies, and told him that I would be coming to South Florida to do some personal shopping. I wanted to spend time with him, as we had in the past. As my plans came to fruition, it became obvious that I would be visiting Pete during a time that he and Billy Mitchell were involved in an event at Boomers Arcade. During my visit, Pete and I went to Boomers. We verified the Donkey kong machine's settings and the recording set-up. The back of the game, with the recording equipment, was purposefully left open during the entire event for complete transparency and to facilitate the adjudication process.

    Kimberly Mahoney was present as a third member of Twin Galaxies staff. Originally, I was under the impression that Pete Bouvier would officiate the world record attempt. However, he delegated the responsibility to myself and Kimberly Mahoney, deciding to go about his daily business during the weekend while making frequent visits to the venue to check on the situation."


    https://drive.google.com/drive/folde...J2np9Bm1DHRYFJ
    Last edited by The Evener; 08-02-2020 at 10:39 AM.
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  8. 08-02-2020, 10:48 AM
    Quote Originally Posted by The Evener View Post
    What can be said for certain is that Todd's responsibilities changed on 1 March 2010 when he became Chief Evangelist, and was relieved from all referee duties as outlined by OriginalPSP and confirmed by the Wayback Machine.
    is it clear from wayback machine the relieved from all referee duties part? thats what i've been questioning and trying to confirm. Thats what i didnt see explicilty stated anywhere and only brought up so many years later. dont get me wrong, it sure looks like a lot of procedure were broken, and then retroactively begrudingly approved so sure, it would fit a pattern and not impossible but i didnt see the part that confirmed it. Can you point me exactly to the part about the relieved from all referee duties?
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  9. 08-02-2020, 10:56 AM
    Quote Originally Posted by The Evener View Post
    What can be said for certain is that Todd's responsibilities changed on 1 March 2010 when he became Chief Evangelist, and was relieved from all referee duties as outlined by OriginalPSP and confirmed by the Wayback Machine.
    If the Boomers score went into the database with a verification method of "referee", it means Todd acted as a referee that day, and it hardly matters if he's on any sort of official list.
    The story of all the TG staff getting together and talking it over only adds weight to the claim that Todd was legitimately a referee.

    In hindsight the score shouldn't have been accepted. Did old TG break their own rules? It seems to me that they made the rules as they went along, all loosy-goosey which is what was capitalized on.
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  10. 08-02-2020, 10:59 AM
    Quote Originally Posted by benasselstine View Post
    If the Boomers score went into the database with a verification method of "referee", it means Todd acted as a referee that day, and it hardly matters if he's on any sort of official list.
    The story of all the TG staff getting together and talking it over only adds weight to the claim that Todd was legitimately a referee.

    In hindsight the score shouldn't have been accepted. Did old TG break their own rules? It seems to me that they made the rules as they went along, all loosy-goosey which is what was capitalized on.
    yes david's complain wanst "todd wasnt a referee" it was that todd wasnt their unbiased referee of choice but was rather billy's referee of choice

    accusing todd of being a biased referee and accusing billy of selecting his own biased referee is pretty different from accusing todd of not being a referree. in fact, its an admission from nelson hismelf that todd WAS a referee, just not the right one for the particular job
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