Post Verdict Dispute Discussion: Jeremy Young - Arcade - Donkey Kong - Points [Hammer Allowed] - Player: Billy L Mitchell - Score: 1,062,800

  1. 08-02-2020, 11:02 AM
    Quote Originally Posted by Snowflake View Post
    is it clear from wayback machine the relieved from all referee duties part? thats what i've been questioning and trying to confirm. Thats what i didnt see explicilty stated anywhere and only brought up so many years later. dont get me wrong, it sure looks like a lot of procedure were broken, and then retroactively begrudingly approved so sure, it would fit a pattern and not impossible but i didnt see the part that confirmed it. Can you point me exactly to the part about the relieved from all referee duties?
    I can only point to the Wayback Machine where Todd's name was removed as a referee for all the consoles he previously served in that capacity.

    May 27 2010 Snapshot:
    https://web.archive.org/web/20100527...ndex.aspx?c=15

    Atari 2600 (VCS): Todd Rogers
    Atari 400/800/XL/XE: Todd Rogers
    Atari 5200: Todd Rogers
    Atari 7800: Todd Rogers
    Atari Jaguar / CD: Todd Rogers
    Atari Lynx: Todd Rogers
    Atari ST: Todd Rogers
    Intellivision: Todd Rogers
    Rogers, Todd - Classic Gaming Evangelist

    November 30 2010 Snapshot:
    https://web.archive.org/web/20101130...ndex.aspx?c=15
    Rogers, Todd - Classic Gaming Evangelist

    In that sense, any player reviewing the list to confirm the appropriate referee for their submission wouldn't send it to Todd.
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  2. 08-02-2020, 11:06 AM
    Quote Originally Posted by The Evener View Post
    I can only point to the Wayback Machine where Todd's name was removed as a referee for all the consoles he previously served in that capacity.

    May 27 2010 Snapshot:
    https://web.archive.org/web/20100527...ndex.aspx?c=15

    Atari 2600 (VCS): Todd Rogers
    Atari 400/800/XL/XE: Todd Rogers
    Atari 5200: Todd Rogers
    Atari 7800: Todd Rogers
    Atari Jaguar / CD: Todd Rogers
    Atari Lynx: Todd Rogers
    Atari ST: Todd Rogers
    Intellivision: Todd Rogers
    Rogers, Todd - Classic Gaming Evangelist

    November 30 2010 Snapshot:
    https://web.archive.org/web/20101130...ndex.aspx?c=15
    Rogers, Todd - Classic Gaming Evangelist

    In that sense, any player reviewing the list to confirm the appropriate referee for their submission wouldn't send it to Todd.
    ah yes that i agree with.

    the reason i'm nit picking this point though isnt just cause i nit pick everything (i do, but thats not the case here), rather this detail is important and goes a long way to counter morning dove being the ref by attempting an explain a motive to lie. the motive being, if todd wasnt qualifed they needed to lie and claim morning dove was. so whether or not todd had the right to continue referee duties after being a chief evangelist sounds subtle, but remember the context it was brought up in, and the point being made from it, it becomes extremely relevant.

    this is about did todd have the right to verify the score or not. now you've found there were indeed issues picking job. but if it turns out he wasnt just biased, he wasnt just selected by billy and not tg itself, but he actually wasnt even a ref, well that point was major and now that its coming time to ask for proof of such a huge accusation i dont think we can dismiss it as a minor detail unless of course the accusation itself is decided to be small. but i got frustrated when something is a major point when believed, but the moment its questioned suddenly its a small point that i shouldnt be questioning
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  3. 08-02-2020, 11:06 AM
    Quote Originally Posted by benasselstine View Post
    If the Boomers score went into the database with a verification method of "referee", it means Todd acted as a referee that day, and it hardly matters if he's on any sort of official list.
    The story of all the TG staff getting together and talking it over only adds weight to the claim that Todd was legitimately a referee.

    In hindsight the score shouldn't have been accepted. Did old TG break their own rules? It seems to me that they made the rules as they went along, all loosy-goosey which is what was capitalized on.
    I came to the opposite conclusion - that the debate at the Big Bang around accepting the Boomer's score indicates there were problems with how the score was apparently verified live. Ultimately, my main interest does connect back to OriginalPSP's recollection about how Mahoney's name did not come up during those Monday phone calls.
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  4. 08-02-2020, 11:08 AM
    Quote Originally Posted by Snowflake View Post
    accusing todd of being a biased referee and accusing billy of selecting his own biased referee is pretty different from accusing todd of not being a referree. in fact, its an admission from nelson hismelf that todd WAS a referee, just not the right one for the particular job
    yeah Todd seems to be a very bad choice of referee, but apparently he was "right enough" for a score to be accepted by folks acting in good faith.
  5. 08-02-2020, 11:12 AM
    another point to consider for the morning dove tie in. its only relevant if todd wasnt a ref at all

    if the problem was billy went over TGs head selecting todd, then he equally went over TGs head selecting morning dove. so it would serve no point to lie about selecting her, as claims of her selection dont solve the issue

    likewise if the problem was todd was biased, i would imagine the same would apply to her

    it only makes sense to say they made her up after the fact if
    1. todd wasnt a ref
    2. she was (or they can convince people she was)

    todd not being a ref is the only reason they would need to claim another ref was there. they'd have absolutely zero motive to lie about morning dove is todd was a ref.

    now on the other hand, if todd was a ref, it makes sense the secondary ref would hardly be mentioned as its so superflous. you'd only bring her up later if doubt starts to really increase and you need every little deail in your favor

    so i absolutley maintain the claim todd could no longer ref is very important to verify. PSP made that statement precisely because he knew it was so huge and important, so lets continue treating it as important and do what needs to be done with all important things. verify or debunk
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  6. 08-02-2020, 11:24 AM
    Quote Originally Posted by The Evener View Post
    I came to the opposite conclusion - that the debate at the Big Bang around accepting the Boomer's score indicates there were problems with how the score was apparently verified live. Ultimately, my main interest does connect back to OriginalPSP's recollection about how Mahoney's name did not come up during those Monday phone calls.
    That's fair. I'm just disputing this line of argument that goes: "We discount the score because Todd wasn't even officially a ref." If he acted as a referee that day in the score was accepted by on that basis by the highest levels, he's de-facto a referee. What's important (to me anyway) is Todd's reputation as a bad referee and the behind the scenes finagling to select him for the Boomers event. The whole story is truly damning, but this series of technical gotchas involving referee lists seems unlikely to be fruitful in my opinion. I'm happy to be wrong about this.
  7. 08-02-2020, 11:47 AM
    Quote Originally Posted by benasselstine View Post
    That's fair. I'm just disputing this line of argument that goes: "We discount the score because Todd wasn't even officially a ref." If he acted as a referee that day in the score was accepted by on that basis by the highest levels, he's de-facto a referee. What's important (to me anyway) is Todd's reputation as a bad referee and the behind the scenes finagling to select him for the Boomers event. The whole story is truly damning, but this series of technical gotchas involving referee lists seems unlikely to be fruitful in my opinion. I'm happy to be wrong about this.
    An added element to this is that Mahoney was a Referee-at-Large, and according to a thread I read (unrelated to Mitchell), a Referee-at-Large with a witness could "live verify" a score, so in this case Todd could have stood in for a witness if the referee debate at the Big Bang came to that. So in that sense, when it came down to the wire, it wasn't just Todd's role or word.

    I may be wrong about this, but my general understanding is that a TG referee verified score was by and large (with some exceptions, yes) pretty uncontroversial. This was exactly how scores were approved at the annual Funspot tournament, for example - games were verified live, they were recorded, and later they were entered onto the scoreboard. The fact that there was any controversy or added scrutiny to the Boomer's scores when they were apparently verified live is significant, that simply saying "Todd and Morningdove were there" wasn't sufficient for TG to simply rubber-stamp the scores.
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  8. 08-02-2020, 11:59 AM
    Quote Originally Posted by The Evener View Post
    The fact that there was any controversy or added scrutiny to the Boomer's scores when they were apparently verified live is significant, that simply saying "Todd and Morningdove were there" wasn't sufficient for TG to simply rubber-stamp the scores.
    Yes if TG knew then what TG knows now they wouldn't have accepted the score, and the lifetime bans would have been put into place earlier.

    I agree it's significant because it fits into a larger story of preferential treatment.
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  9. 08-02-2020, 12:03 PM
    Quote Originally Posted by The Evener View Post
    An added element to this is that Mahoney was a Referee-at-Large, and according to a thread I read (unrelated to Mitchell), a Referee-at-Large with a witness could "live verify" a score, so in this case Todd could have stood in for a witness if the referee debate at the Big Bang came to that. So in that sense, when it came down to the wire, it wasn't just Todd's role or word.

    I may be wrong about this, but my general understanding is that a TG referee verified score was by and large (with some exceptions, yes) pretty uncontroversial. This was exactly how scores were approved at the annual Funspot tournament, for example - games were verified live, they were recorded, and later they were entered onto the scoreboard. The fact that there was any controversy or added scrutiny to the Boomer's scores when they were apparently verified live is significant, that simply saying "Todd and Morningdove were there" wasn't sufficient for TG to simply rubber-stamp the scores.
    absolutley signficant. no shortage of shenannigans. but thats all the added contreversy proves, that there were alot of shenanigans that upset people, it does prove or even give a hint of evidence to this particular accusation.

    look billy has about 1001 nails in his coffin, but before we going adding a 1002 lets hold the same level of logic and evidence that we held up to this point. i feel like at first, the tg favorites were unquestonable and it was "who are you to question them" i'm starting to feel like now we've gone the other way of just immediately believing an accusation against the old favorites. and bias in the opposite direction is still bias and no better
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  10. 08-02-2020, 08:45 PM
    well today has been a carpet bombing of research. I do this some of the time, usually find almost nothing that i was specifically searching for but all sorts of cool unrelated stuff. Among the somewhat related stuff that others might find interesting and I know @The Evener will find it interesting as I remember his suprise to note this earlier when it came up, was roys prediction of the event, but at the time alpiger also noticed how interesting it was roy noticed. I'd like to point out yet again the more we learn about roy the more we realize that people should've llistened to him.

    http://classicarcadegaming.com/ts/index.htm#08032010
    Name:  image.png
Views: 235
Size:  238.3 KB

    A second very interesting theme, and all over TG at the time that will surprise noone, except maybe the extent, is just what a secret this event was. For a record that sites a bunch of witnesses it sure is interesting how under cover it was and how anyone that would've been a more suspicoius viewer missed their chance. In fact you can see ccag dot com that AFTER the event happened the score was still a rumor. That really highlights to me just how few people knew, even people that stay on top of this sort of thing didnt know right after it happened and only had rumors. TG threads i've found show a simliar theme where the rumor (and correct) got out about the dual records but it couldnt be confirmed. That tells you the people in attendance that did know didnt post publicly about it (though some slipped up or perhaps purposely teased the rumor through some other channels obvoiusly). Cant emphasize enough how astounding i find that. Lots of people were trying to discover the rumor, since the first rumor was more vauge that billy did something big, the second rumor was the dual records which of course later turned out to be true

    but really think of that. all these hard core classic arcaders and none of them knew what it was, and those who did know were fighting the urge to post. that really tells you how many "witnesses" there were the sort of people that even would've cared versus just passer byes.

    it just floors me how a public with allegedly so many witnessed was teased as rumor that something big happened and people couldnt confirm this public activity even happened for a little while.
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