Post Verdict Dispute Discussion: Jeremy Young - Arcade - Donkey Kong - Points [Hammer Allowed] - Player: Billy L Mitchell - Score: 1,062,800

  1. 08-05-2020, 12:04 AM
    Quote Originally Posted by Ninglendo View Post
    Let's get back on topic here. I was addressing the bans issued in this thread. If you can provide any proof that the recently banned (Sroka & Cohen) were part of a "gang" that has been scaring off potential community members then I would like to see some proof.
    All parties are not here... ergo (conceptual & tentative) proof.

    I could have sworn the topic here was Billy Mitchell. ;)
  2. 08-05-2020, 12:13 AM
    Chief Evangelist title:

    It was created for Walter on one of his multiple returns to TG (Walter "retired" several times from TG to pursue his music career). Unsurprisingly, Walter's pressence with/at TG (site/events/whatever) lent a history. So it was important that if Walter was going to be somewhere where TG was, that his association was maintained. The Chief Evangelist role was created for that purpose.

    Walter retired for the final time and that left a public-facing hole where the Chief Evangelist title was. (At the time) Todd was a stalwart from TG & gaming's history and so the mantle passed.

    Todd had left staff previously & was occasionally deputized (I've cited the link previously but can't find it) as a referee for live events. While "Chief Evangelist" itself does not convery any referee duties, the history of Todd being deputized is a convenient way for TG to have brush the Billy Mitchell score in. It's not difficult (for me) to see the two pieces of information being used in the TG marketing machine back then - whether by convenience or design.
    Lots of 1sts to be surpassed: what are you waiting for? Play the game, submit the score...
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  3. 08-05-2020, 12:13 AM
    Quote Originally Posted by Ninglendo View Post
    Let's get back on topic here. I was addressing the bans issued in this thread. If you can provide any proof that the recently banned (Sroka & Cohen) were part of a "gang" that has been scaring off potential community members then I would like to see some proof.
    It's not a matter of having proof that THEY SPECIFICALLY did something to scare off users. They were ban due to how they chose to conduct themselves in this thread this afternoon. Their bans reflect the severity of their actions.

    This conversation could go around in circles if you continue to deflect my reasoning. I can't make you believe me, but the truth is out there for those who choose to hear it.
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  4. 08-05-2020, 12:14 AM
    i think every comment along the way was valid cause it was a response to a response...... however yes the end result is something different.

    The topic is billy mitchel's dispute
    a piece of evidence in that is patricks new testimony
    counters to that evidence would also be on topic, one counter being credibilty since all we have is word, the credibility of the word factors

    attacks on credibilty led to ban in some cases but not others. it makes sense after seeing a ban people would not want to be banned themselves, so a break from the dispute itself and rather a new discussion of what the rules even are becomes needed. we cant very well discuss billy without knowing how we're allowed to discuss billy.
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  5. 08-05-2020, 12:21 AM
    Quote Originally Posted by SincerelyFranny View Post
    It's not a matter of having proof that THEY SPECIFICALLY did something to scare off users. They were ban due to how they chose to conduct themselves in this thread this afternoon. Their bans reflect the severity of their actions.

    This conversation could go around in circles if you continue to deflect my reasoning. I can't make you believe me, but the truth is out there for those who choose to hear it.
    Yet, people conducted themselves in a far worse way less than 2 months ago and I am told that 8 months ago moderation got to the point where it is now. I'm not deflecting your reasoning either. It's the exact opposite.
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  6. 08-05-2020, 12:22 AM
    Quote Originally Posted by Barthax View Post
    Chief Evangelist title:

    It was created for Walter on one of his multiple returns to TG (Walter "retired" several times from TG to pursue his music career). Unsurprisingly, Walter's pressence with/at TG (site/events/whatever) lent a history. So it was important that if Walter was going to be somewhere where TG was, that his association was maintained. The Chief Evangelist role was created for that purpose.

    Walter retired for the final time and that left a public-facing hole where the Chief Evangelist title was. (At the time) Todd was a stalwart from TG & gaming's history and so the mantle passed.

    Todd had left staff previously & was occasionally deputized (I've cited the link previously but can't find it) as a referee for live events. While "Chief Evangelist" itself does not convery any referee duties, the history of Todd being deputized is a convenient way for TG to have brush the Billy Mitchell score in. It's not difficult (for me) to see the two pieces of information being used in the TG marketing machine back then - whether by convenience or design.
    this is all makes sense. to the point i was making it certainly means todd wasnt forbidden from verifying scores. however to "staying on topic" of course all that matters is was he allowed to verify billy score. so heres the million dollar question. while we'll never know if he was explicilty given permission for this event other than his word, hypothetically, what would've happened if todd tried to verify another score without being deputized. lets say i'm his next door neighbor and i ask him to verify me playing some game and watch. if he then contacted the ref for game and watch (i know it wasnt tracked then, go with me), and said "hey i watched rosa get the score, it checks out" would it have gotten in? essentailly i'm asking could todd take it on himself to self deputize in a way, would tg honor ref moves he made.
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  7. 08-05-2020, 12:30 AM
    Quote Originally Posted by Ninglendo View Post
    Yet, people conducted themselves in a far worse way less than 2 months ago and I am told that 8 months ago moderation got to the point where it is now. I'm not deflecting your reasoning either. It's the exact opposite.
    See, here it is... The circle that we are talking into once again.

    I said in December Jace suggested heavier moderation that was up to my discretion. My discretion in the previous month had proved itself to be too lax and now needs to be tightened up. That was it on the topic of moderation. Additional, the fact that it was not impacted by PSP was the truth I was referring to. Everybody will be moderated in the same manner moving forward.
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  8. 08-05-2020, 12:30 AM
    Quote Originally Posted by Snowflake View Post
    this is all makes sense. to the point i was making it certainly means todd wasnt forbidden from verifying scores. however to "staying on topic" of course all that matters is was he allowed to verify billy score. so heres the million dollar question. while we'll never know if he was explicilty given permission for this event other than his word, hypothetically, what would've happened if todd tried to verify another score without being deputized. lets say i'm his next door neighbor and i ask him to verify me playing some game and watch. if he then contacted the ref for game and watch (i know it wasnt tracked then, go with me), and said "hey i watched rosa get the score, it checks out" would it have gotten in? essentailly i'm asking could todd take it on himself to self deputize in a way, would tg honor ref moves he made.
    You're seeking something concrete for something that could be very tentative. Todd's presence at the event would have been enough for the TG marketing machine to indicate (any score) was verified. Todd could have rolled in, shook hands and had a beer [Edit: was 'bear'!] at a nearby bar for all that matters to the TG marketing machine (I wasn't there - I don't know, I'd recently left TG and wasn't privy to anything, hehe I was also being a pain in the arse to PSP at the time - no love lost between us two ;) ). The publicity off the back of the score is the aim of the TG marketing machine and what better combination than the TG poster boy being verified by the first professional gamer? Any official announcement of the time is likely to be embellished. Personal testimony now, now that the NDA is lapsed (myself included), has far more weight, in my opinion.
    Last edited by Barthax; 08-05-2020 at 12:40 AM.
  9. 08-05-2020, 12:32 AM
    as for the radically increased severity in moderation, i cant ignore the timing, but i also know no matter when you time something its always going to coincide with something. I'll accept the answer (i mean i doubt it, but what choice do i have but accept). I also intend a little test though as i'll be paying attention going forward how comments towards others and by others are moderated.

    as for suspicions Patrick in particular was given some special deal by jace, i believe i found a non toxic way to test it that noone can justifiably complain about. Beat some of his scores. While i dont deny an ulterior motive to going after his scores, thats just it, if beaten scores with an ulterior motive results in him complaining how unfair it is we took his scores and thats cracked down on, we'll know he was given a special deal after all. If however its accepted then we know timing just really was a weird coincident.

    so i think i'm satisfied with that tangent, or rather, i dont think furhter dialogue will help and only time itself can satisfy concerns
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  10. 08-05-2020, 07:44 AM
    Quote Originally Posted by Barthax View Post
    You're seeking something concrete for something that could be very tentative. Todd's presence at the event would have been enough for the TG marketing machine to indicate (any score) was verified. Todd could have rolled in, shook hands and had a beer [Edit: was 'bear'!] at a nearby bar for all that matters to the TG marketing machine (I wasn't there - I don't know, I'd recently left TG and wasn't privy to anything, hehe I was also being a pain in the arse to PSP at the time - no love lost between us two ;) ). The publicity off the back of the score is the aim of the TG marketing machine and what better combination than the TG poster boy being verified by the first professional gamer? Any official announcement of the time is likely to be embellished. Personal testimony now, now that the NDA is lapsed (myself included), has far more weight, in my opinion.
    Building on this, I would clarify that my objective is not to ignore the history that may exist between members. But there is very much a practical necessity in my opinion to set aside personal feelings to have a full airing from people who are willing to step forward. Why? Because Jace stuck his neck out in creating a community-based dispute review process that has resulted in a multi-million dollar lawsuit against TG - now he's spending tens of thousands of dollars to defend TG and the wider gaming community's ability to arrive at and discuss matters of public interest.

    Remember when Jace talked about the need to do things right because there could be legal repercussions? I think there was some skepticism that someone would sue, the implication being that Jace was taking things too seriously, that there were some posts complaining he was taking too long, there was already enough evidence, etc. Well, here we are - it got real.

    Going back February 2018, xelnia wrote:

    And PSP always has the option of posting here and giving a more thorough account (at least if he's being honest about wanting to see Billy held accountable).
    Back then, OriginalPSP's statement about a pressure-filled vote at Big Bang was looked upon skeptically by TG members. Now we've had other refs confirm it, so we've concretely expanded our knowledge of that event. Will his subsequent statements about the phone calls have any bearing on things going forward? I can't really say as one can't always foresee or anticipate when a piece of information might be useful. Sometimes it's just about having something recorded or noted, and then later on something else comes up that makes that earlier point much more significant.

    At minimum, it would seem that if Todd had senior referee rights, he could have logged into the TG database and entered the score himself that Monday since I've heard multiple times (and I think it's said as much in the evidence submissions) that a score that is adjudicated live by a senior referee is basically "verified" right then and there - it's just a formality to sit down at a computer and enter it into the DB. But instead, we had a scenario five days later at the Big Bang where TG refs had to debate and vote on the acceptance of Mitchell's scores mere hours before his planned announcement. There's zero need for that kind of situation - especially given the unpredictability it introduced in Mitchell's announcement plans - if Todd had full rights to confirm and verify the score in the DB himself. I'd like to pose more questions, and others like David Nelson may step forward to add their voice to compare. In short, I think the overall situation is serious enough that it's in our collective interest to hear someone out, get their full account down and go from there.
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