Post Verdict Dispute Discussion: Jeremy Young - Arcade - Donkey Kong - Points [Hammer Allowed] - Player: Billy L Mitchell - Score: 1,062,800

  1. 08-06-2020, 11:19 AM
    Quote Originally Posted by Snowflake View Post
    because as we touched on before todd wasnt supposed to verify this particular score mainly because of the bias and proper channels not gone through. Players dont select their ref, twin galaxies does. remember i'm arguing a more detailed point about if todd was forbidden across the board from verifying scores. i'm not arguing he was allowed to verify this one. clearly this one upset higher ups and required a vote. So todd not being able to directly enter wouldnt prove he didnt have the right, todd not being able to simply send an email also doesnt prove he was stripped of such abilites across the board, likewise refs taking issues with this particular score being witnessed by him wouldnt prove he was denied the right to verify across the board. admittedly a more pedantic point not relevant to the end conclusion that billy's score violated procedure to be validated, but as you pointed out, we never know what detail will matter when. I think my point on this keeps being slightly misread, take it completely literally on facevalue. this is about defending the score, its about the claim todd's right to verify scores was blanketly stripped.
    Okay. I find the explanation that he didn't have authority to verify the score more compelling in light of how everything unfolded than the explanation that he did, but yes, I agree it's not conclusive. I will keep my eyes open for additional discussion on the role of a chief evangelist on my Internet travels.
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  2. 08-06-2020, 11:31 AM
    Quote Originally Posted by The Evener View Post
    Okay. I find the explanation that he didn't have authority to verify the score more compelling in light of how everything unfolded than the explanation that he did, but yes, I agree it's not conclusive. I will keep my eyes open for additional discussion on the role of a chief evangelist on my Internet travels.
    i also find the explanation todd didnt have the authority to verify "THE" score likely. I agree he did not have the authority to verify this score, again my chief evangelist point is about his authorities in general.

    now thank you for those links. a snippet of the rule which i believe goes towards both points
    "All submissions for scores exceeding 1,000,000 points must be video recorded (no live feeds) and they must be witnessed by Walter Day or a Senior Referee"

    This both simultaneoulsy explains why someone not allowed to verify this score is not necessarily stripped of authority, since even walter day himself is not authorized to verify scores unless theres ALSO a video recording. noone, not todd, not walter, noone was authorized to verify a donkey kong sub without video, and further rules on video rule out direct feed.

    as you point out the rules changed again not long before the boomer score. Sadly its not explicit. it just gives rules on recording, no longer expliclty outlawing or allowing refing. One could reasonable assume if only rules for recording are included then only recording is allowed.

    honestly in light of all this, i think twin galaxies is justified in removing billy's score solely on the grounds they broke their own rules, and that alone i think is a pretty relevant outcome that made all this worth it.


    Lode Runner Champion
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  3. 08-07-2020, 07:58 PM
    http://donkeykongforum.com/index.php?topic=2761

    I believe this technical analysis I did about the vertical refresh rate of the Donkey Kong PCB will be relevant to this discussion.
    Donkey Kong: 1,116,400
  4. 08-08-2020, 12:07 AM
    Quote Originally Posted by expandedidea View Post
    http://donkeykongforum.com/index.php?topic=2761

    I believe this technical analysis I did about the vertical refresh rate of the Donkey Kong PCB will be relevant to this discussion.
    This would have been far more helpful around the initial dispute, but a good writeup nonetheless. I'll just paste the main takeaway here:

    Quote Originally Posted by TL;DR
    The scan rate of the Sanyo 20EZ monitor is specified as 60 Hz, within plus or minus 5 Hz. This is a tolerance, meaning the monitor can take any refresh rate in this range. 60.6 Hz is well within this tolerance. What the monitor can interpret is also irrelevant to what the game board produces since they are completely separate electrically, especially in a direct feed game.
    The first sentence is rather obvious: despite being a 60 Hz monitor it isn't locked to such. The speed in DK is higher than the normal frequency yet it isn't lowered. I have no idea what it means in the bigger picture, but the next sentence seems far more crucial. Now I'm not a hardware-savvy person (lean towards software), but if I'm reading that next part right it basically means that all this investigation into recreating MAME artifacts through a regular setup was just a red herring from the very beginning: it's impossible without using MAME itself or if the board just worked that way. Mr. Childs was simply talking out of his ass... and everyone on Team Billy, including Mr. Mitchell himself, didn't know where they were going with all this.* I honestly don't blame BM for taking that route though since it all seemed like a good idea at the time. He stated in the board swap video that he's no expert in hardware, and if I were in his spot I'd gladly take the help if it led to some way to cover up the incriminating evidence with ambiguity. I could be wrong in my interpretation, and this rant would be pointless.

    Regardless, my hat is off to Carlos for his passion and integrity though I still think the analysis would have saved him a good bit time and energy.

    *Edit: Obviously they had a goal, but the technical explanation offered by Childs simply was meant to muddy the water and create a possibility that Carlos intended to capitalize on.
    **Edit 2: Might as well correct myself before others do now that what I overlooked got explained. The claim that the game runs at 60 Hz because of the monitor was an effort to debunk the idea that modifying MAME to replicate the girder finger is wrong. There is some math done in that post right before this paragraph that explains why exactly it's 60.6. Also worth noting is that you can see Carlos and BM allude to modification with the reference of a "cheat code" in their texts, which Mr. Mitchell wanted to believe was made up around that time to work against them.
    Last edited by Streetwize; 08-08-2020 at 10:32 AM.
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  5. 08-08-2020, 05:30 AM
    Quote Originally Posted by expandedidea View Post
    http://donkeykongforum.com/index.php?topic=2761

    I believe this technical analysis I did about the vertical refresh rate of the Donkey Kong PCB will be relevant to this discussion.
    Thank you. I've found it bizarre and puzzling that it's claimed I "deliberately lied" about the PCB running at 60.6 when I had thought this was something that was well known and documented, especially to anyone trying to build their own direct capture hardware before the days of Mr. Video daughterboards.
  6. 08-08-2020, 06:46 AM
    Carlos Pineiro speaks

    Your friend, datagod

    ~~Raspberry Pi Enthusiast~~
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  7. 08-08-2020, 09:24 AM
    And here's the promised video by Karl Jobst:

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  8. 08-08-2020, 09:40 AM
    TRUTH INCOMING... Please watch both of these.
    The Mic Drops from Karl Jobst,
    https://www.youtube.com/watch…

    And from technician Carlos Pineiro....
    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4Sx8oH2pa_0
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  9. 08-08-2020, 10:10 AM
    Can I scream now?
    Lauren Tyler
    Eternal Champion of Ragol
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  10. 08-08-2020, 09:10 PM
    After a surprisingly civil discussion between Casey and me on Carlos Piñiero's video, I was told that Mr. Mitchell plans to release another package in October. On one hand, it's something more to look forward to. On the other hand, I really just want him to give up already. How much more does this community need to break down? Every time he fights TG with alleged evidence, the community simply finds new truths that make him look worse. Maybe I'm a bit jaded with the current world issues, but this is starting to get beyond ridiculous.
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