Post Verdict Dispute Discussion: Jeremy Young - Arcade - Donkey Kong - Points [Hammer Allowed] - Player: Billy L Mitchell - Score: 1,062,800

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  1. 08-11-2020, 03:42 AM
    Hi TG and Gamers

    Please explain potential thought process here...

    Let' start with the premise that "Billy did not use original hardware to play a certain score but a referee did approve it".

    Now regardless of a claim if a referee did approve a score or not is actually irrelevant? because if non original hardware was used then the score is invalid. As simple as that - without even trying to proof a game was approved by a referee or not. That claim : "A referee approved a score" is then not relevant? So why the focus on who referee what? Regardless if the referee was Walter Day or Todd Rodgers or even "Robert Muzereck's non existing twin".
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    Francois du Toit
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  2. 08-11-2020, 06:17 AM
    Quote Originally Posted by francoisadt View Post
    Hi TG and Gamers

    Please explain potential thought process here...

    Let' start with the premise that "Billy did not use original hardware to play a certain score but a referee did approve it".

    Now regardless of a claim if a referee did approve a score or not is actually irrelevant? because if non original hardware was used then the score is invalid. As simple as that - without even trying to proof a game was approved by a referee or not. That claim : "A referee approved a score" is then not relevant? So why the focus on who referee what? Regardless if the referee was Walter Day or Todd Rodgers or even "Robert Muzereck's non existing twin".
    as far as evaluating the score itself, you're right irrelevant. But i think we care about more in life than simply if billy mitchel achieved this particular score. knowing the back story is interesting. knowing about errors can help us idenitfy other similiar errors as well as not repeat them again.

    also, think of the signficance and far reaching implication of the claim. While every organizatoin has corrupt people, incompetant people, as well as good qualified people making honest mistakes, think of what we're hearing (and is partially confirmed) happened here.

    you had the board of referrees and owner, get together, consult, be fully aware billy's submission broke the rules and yet verify it anyway. to have so many of them come together and deliberate like that and willfully break their own rules as a group is signficant. If this is all true, how can we possibly trust any score verified under than ownership?
    Lode Runner champ, also, Roy was right
  3. 08-11-2020, 02:57 PM
    With the first two scores, you are correct. The issue with the third score is that it was purportedly done live with a referee overseeing the score. Whlle tapes were recorded as proof, there is no publicly-available footage outside camera footage that was supposed to be the final 20-minutes of said run. The same artifacts are also present in the run, but since we never actually had access to the whole tape we're stuck with a lot of circumstantial evidence. That alone provides nothing absolute in disproving its authenticity even though the run is sketchy as it is. This is why the legality of the refereeing is so important here. If TG broke their own rules, it'd be something really solid to disprove the validity of the run.
  4. 08-11-2020, 03:18 PM
    the breaking of the own rules i'm talking about is two fold. evener and i both dug up a bit and piggy backed on each other earlier in this thread, and there seems to two rules violations that they chose to ignore

    1. donkey kong couldnt have direct feed for verification, even with a ref it still needed video (NOT direct feed, explicilty not direct feed). granted, perhaps the rules on the wayback machine werent properly updated, so while psp's word, as well as all avaiable documentation agree, there is of course a chance we're missing something. This is the rule i believe they willfully broke
    2. according to psp todd wasnt allowed to be the ref. i'm not convinced of this, but if true would be a second one of their very own rules they chose to knowingly violate for the approval.
    Lode Runner champ, also, Roy was right
  5. 08-11-2020, 04:12 PM
    Quote Originally Posted by francoisadt View Post
    Hi TG and Gamers

    Please explain potential thought process here...

    Let' start with the premise that "Billy did not use original hardware to play a certain score but a referee did approve it".

    Now regardless of a claim if a referee did approve a score or not is actually irrelevant? because if non original hardware was used then the score is invalid. As simple as that - without even trying to proof a game was approved by a referee or not. That claim : "A referee approved a score" is then not relevant? So why the focus on who referee what? Regardless if the referee was Walter Day or Todd Rodgers or even "Robert Muzereck's non existing twin".
    I agree that it's irrelevant when we're focusing on technical evidence, but as Streetwize points out, the technical evidence for the 1.06 million score was "incomplete" insofar as TG couldn't point to a complete run. To echo part of what Snowflake said, I think it's partly motivated by a general interest in understanding the circumstances/history around this event especially since TG staff was bound by a NDA and therefore the details weren't widely known outside of the small circle that participated. Again, I have my own theory about why it's more broadly relevant, which may or may not come up depending on what happens down the road.

    The qualifier I would add Snowflake is that we shouldn't lose sight of the specific context of that score approval - to say that the pressure was immense with Mitchell off in the wings, hours away from giving his acceptance speech, with TVs and VCRs cued as well as posters and magazines announcing his score, would be an understatement. After all, this wasn't just some random video game players off the street we're talking about here - this was basically a TG figurehead, second only to Walter. For those reasons, the score approval is unique enough in my mind that I wouldn't cast the net to call into question all scores verified under Bouvier's ownership.
  6. 08-11-2020, 04:23 PM
    thats fair evener. and i'll admit as much as i like to think my ethics are unshakable if someone offered me a million dollars i'd approve a fake scores too. i'd like to think though what it would take for me to break my ethics is such a high number it would never realistically happen.

    ok, it at least though puts doubt on all of billy's score, even his more solid ones. If the idea is he had so much influence he could do whatever he wanted then his other scores could have the same defense. It also begs the question if other tg favorites had similair influence, maybe weaker, but still strong enough to get their way.

    also we are dealing with volunteers, so unlike a paying job we're you may be afraid of being fired, with refing i would've hoped the motivation was just a love of games and so i'm seeing pressure to resign as real but pressure to violate your conscience not so much, still i wasnt there so i'm admittedly getting more into the realm of speculation now. just trying to explain why i (and i dont think my thought process is unusual on this) see an entire group agreeing to ignore their own rules as a VERY signficant accusation with lots of implications
    Lode Runner champ, also, Roy was right
  7. 08-12-2020, 05:24 AM
    I may have missed this and I'm relatively new to this discussion, but didn't the "original" DK board contain the ladder glitch that needed to be paid for and patched?
    Likes grinder2112 liked this post
  8. 08-12-2020, 07:28 AM
    Quote Originally Posted by HoldenSSV View Post
    I may have missed this and I'm relatively new to this discussion, but didn't the "original" DK board contain the ladder glitch that needed to be paid for and patched?
    though i cant answer your question as you literally asked it, i think you might be confusing how we use "original". we dont mean "original"/first revision, just "original" like "all original parts". you know, an authentic board, not an after market board put in the cab, not a replacement board, not even replacement components.

    any "original" (nintendo authentic) board that is able to create the mame images billy's tape had would be sufficient to create the possibility of billys game being legitimate. "original" might be better phrased as "authentic nintendo donkey kong board"
    Lode Runner champ, also, Roy was right
  9. 08-12-2020, 07:30 AM
    Quote Originally Posted by HoldenSSV View Post
    I may have missed this and I'm relatively new to this discussion, but didn't the "original" DK board contain the ladder glitch that needed to be paid for and patched?

    That is literally news to me. Thanks for that.

    https://www.vice.com/en_us/article/m...-glitch-letter

    The roms have been captured, apparently, and can be played with MAME where they're known as "Donkey Kong (US Set 2) - dkongo" if you're interested.
    Likes ersatz_cats liked this post
  10. 08-12-2020, 07:35 AM
    Quote Originally Posted by Snowflake View Post
    though i cant answer your question as you literally asked it, i think you might be confusing how we use "original". we dont mean "original"/first revision, just "original" like "all original parts". you know, an authentic board, not an after market board put in the cab, not a replacement board, not even replacement components.

    any "original" (nintendo authentic) board that is able to create the mame images billy's tape had would be sufficient to create the possibility of billys game being legitimate. "original" might be better phrased as "authentic nintendo donkey kong board"
    Thank you. I wasn't trying to be a smart aleck. I just know that in legal proceedings, lawyers will use every semantic trick in the book to sow confusion and doubt.
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