Post Verdict Dispute Discussion: Jeremy Young - Arcade - Donkey Kong - Points [Hammer Allowed] - Player: Billy L Mitchell - Score: 1,062,800

  1. 06-23-2020, 08:37 PM
    Howdy sharkeylaser!

    I hate to say, you might want to go back and read through the dispute thread again (as you suggest we do with Billy's September 2019 evidence packet, which I assure you we have definitely done). At any rate, I'm happy to address a few points of interest:

    Quote Originally Posted by sharkeylaser View Post
    That time and time again, the goal posts kept getting moved around, originally from the two pieces of non-evidence, to the girder finger, to him playing live, to now we need more evidence.

    Goal posts have never moved.

    The board swap video, while suspicious, was not sufficient to remove the score (hence no activity on the dispute thread for months).

    The MAME evidence, of which the girder finger is a part, was compelling in and of itself, and has never been sufficiently addressed.

    Only casual observers suggested Billy could address this by playing live and "re-creating" his scores (which, I would note, he has still failed to do).

    Which takes us back to the MAME evidence, which never "moved", and which Billy has still failed to address.

    Two months was plenty of time for Billy to do the things you suggest. They were able to get a full technical analysis in that time. Billy was reportedly in contact with a number of his alleged witnesses from the old days. Does it really take a whole day to track down one witness? To have a quick chat, write up a signing statement for them and email it to them to sign? I'm doing all this on my free time strictly out of a desire to see truth prevail. Surely, if one has the motivation of defending one's supposedly legitimate gaming achievements, that would be extra motivation to have that documentation ready to be provided. (To that end, how come we have still never seen Billy's "original" tapes to be reviewed?)

    There's no real indication, other than their word, that Guinness has done any due diligence whatsoever. I don't consider them independent when A) they have a longstanding history with Billy and Walter Day, and B) they were subjected to threat of lawsuit if their "investigation" did not provide the desired outcome. Billy is within his legal right to pursue litigation, but why not publish this evidence, allow interested parties to come to their own conclusion, and maybe reserve the right to litigation to a future time?

    Exactly how much are you willing to bet Guinness' "investigation" involved "a more thorough probing of the equipment than TG was ever willing to do"? We have pretty thorough documentation of the hardware analysis by both Jace Hall and Chris Gleed. If Guinness did hardware tests, why were they not published? I see no indication the people at Guinness were so much as in the same building as a Donkey Kong cabinet at any time. What Guinness cited was "newly sourced eyewitness testimony, plus some new expert game play analyses and hardware verification" (each of which I'd be happy to address). To the point, they don't even claim to have done the hardware research done by parties in this dispute, all of whom came to the conclusion that the video seen on Billy's tapes could not have come from authentic arcade hardware. There's no reason for others to claim Guinness took measures Guinness themselves won't claim to have done.

    As for the method of cheating, people have been reluctant to discuss specifics for what I hope are obvious reasons. We don't necessarily know the precise methodology used (nor was it necessary to prove that methodology in order to prove the tapes were not produced as claimed). The most likely method was an input playback, where an "input" file is replayed. This is a legitimate MAME feature for recreational use and for evaluating competitive submissions, but also could be used to replay an illegitimately produced "input" file while the player claims to be playing it live. (This is like speedrun cheaters who pretend to play TASes live.) This would show no splices, and none of the obvious instances of save state use you allude to.

    And that brings us to the infamous "Girder Finger". I'd been considering writing up a brief history of Mr. Girder Finger. I believe this should answer your questions:

    The "Girder Finger" was not an identified aspect of the original MAME evidence published on February 2, 2018. It was there, you could see it, but people had not identified that element specifically. What was identified was that MAME drew to the game board in a significantly different way than authentic arcade. This was true across each of the four game "boards" (barrel, conveyor, elevator, rivet). You can go back to page 19 to review the totality of the evidence across each of the game boards:

    https://www.twingalaxies.com/showthr...062-800/page19

    The critical barrel board screens, are as follows. MAME:

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    Arcade direct feed, via Chris Gleed:

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    And Billy's two surviving tapes:

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    Look again on pgae 19 and see that no specific reference was made to the "girder finger".

    The core dispute was simply that MAME does not load screens in the way arcade does. Rather than just looking at similarities and differences, it helps to understand why this is the case. Both systems draw to a video buffer in the same way, but MAME draws from that buffer in snapshots, while arcade does so in a left-to-right sweep. A good illustration of this effect was posted by bh, which you can see here:

    https://www.reddit.com/r/speedrun/co...ng_mame_frame/

    To be clear, this isn't a manufacturing error, nor is it a simple matter of resistor tolerance. They didn't produce three random Donkey Kong cabinets in fundamentally different ways such that three different scores of Billy's, years apart, on three different machines, all showed each of several MAME signatures while never showing a definitive arcade identifier, with this phenomenon never happening to anyone else ever. This is a fundamental difference in the process of MAME and arcade. No connection to a VCR is going to change this, not that dispute participants didn't attempt it anyway just to confirm the results.

    As to the girder finger, it still wasn't a specifically cited element of the case against Mr. Mitchell until almost a month after the February 2 MAME evidence presentation.

    On February 28, in comment #1570 of the dispute, Asterra attached an illustration of a particular item to look for, stating "What you're looking for is underscored here." Asterra named the image "right here":

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    https://www.twingalaxies.com/showthr...62-800/page157

    In the following reply on the following page, Omega175 remarked:

    This is as if the game gives Billy Mitchell "the finger." lol
    FBX later down the page, in elaborating on the MAME evidence package as a proverbial "smoking gun", added to this notion of a "girder finger":

    That 'finger' on the girder effectively screams out "Billy used MAME", and there's no getting around it.
    From this first bit of traction, it took off. Asterra's image was reposted by Wes Copeland on page 172, and Muf on page 173. The "girder finger" would also sometimes be called the "girder tail", such as on March 13, 2018, when DK competitor Wes Copeland offered a $1000 bounty to anyone capable of reproducing the "girder tail" on arcade hardware:

    https://donkeykongforum.com/index.php?topic=2179.0

    But "girder finger" became the surviving parlance. Asterra's image would often circle around other off-site locations as sort of a singular smoking gun, one particular item which Billy's people could not explain.

    Naturally, it became the centerpiece of a number of jokes and memes as well:

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    But the important point of this is that the "Girder Finger" was not the only aberration found, nor was it even considered particularly relevant at the time. In fact, as Billy's people rightly pointed out later, versions of MAME which showed the girder finger by default were not released until after Billy's earlier scores (the key words here being "by default"). This was, again, because the people assembling this evidence were not using the girder finger as a smoking gun. We were being asked to view the totality of these transition screens, and how MAME fundamentally functions differently from arcade. The important observation, at that time, was that MAME's screen had two full girders and one partial, while arcade had five partial girders. (And that's just on the barrel board.) The reason different eras of MAME drew slightly differently was because tiny little settings (such as decimals of refresh rates) were being fiddled with along the way. Once this discrepancy of MAME release dates was pointed out, it took mere hours to track down. It was a simple matter to adjust the refresh rate of earlier versions of MAME to match what was likely the refresh rate of original arcade, and thus the girder finger appeared on those earlier versions as well. Billy's tapes still matched MAME in several ways, based on several different MAME identifiers on dozens of occasions, including (when altering the refresh rate) the "girder finger". In contrast, no unique arcade identifier can be found even once across any of Billy's tapes. They do not match arcade in any way.

    If you'd like to know more on the overwhelming evidence against Billy Mitchell, I did a pretty exhaustive write-up over at Donkey Kong Forum:

    https://donkeykongforum.com/index.php?topic=2706.0
  2. 06-23-2020, 08:50 PM
    i actually agree with alot of what skarkeylaser said, so dont take my focusing on the disagreement to mean i disagree with all, theres just no point regurgitating the agreed upon points

    i'd like to talk about the claim billy wasnt given enough time. I would hope its understood you cant give infinite time. But, jace did offer to extend the deadline for billy. Billy at least never made any formal public statement until after the resolution, if he discussed anything privately with jace obvioulsy the rest of us dont know about it. Joel West certainly seemed to be talking on billy's behalf, as they're friends, where on shows together discussing the dispute, and billy never contradicted joel's claims i have to assume joel really was speaking for billy. Billy could've of course made this simliar by speaking for himself, but it is what it is

    anyway, joel asked for an extension and was given it. Joel missed the deadline by a few days if i recall, but jace still waited those days. Joel then made very clear they would sue if the scores were removed and they would not be turning over evidence since it makes no sense to give your legal opponent information about an upcoming lawsuit. Once it was made clear the team would be turning over no additional evidence why wait any longer? they were done with the dispute, they were done trying to defend and moved on to the lawsuit angle. both sides agreed there was nothing more to discuss.
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  3. 06-23-2020, 09:36 PM
    Quote Originally Posted by sharkeylaser View Post
    [snip]

    Six months later, the first piece of real evidence arrives: the girder finger. Now we are getting somewhere! That only exists in MAME, so Billy cheated, right?! Well, hold your horses, buddy! What was interesting about that is in the dispute thread, it was proven that such anomaly exists between versions X and Y of MAME (don't remember the version numbers by heart, it's just not that important to me to commit to memory, but it's easy enough for anyone to find). If we look at when the three videos were filmed, there would be nothing I could say against the idea that the 1.05 and 1.06 million tapes were filmed using MAME, but the 1.04 million tape was filmed several months before version X of MAME (the first version to show the girder finger artifact) was ever released! This fact was brought up in the dispute thread before, but was subsequently buried by thousands of hateful anti-Billy comments and thus was never evaluated. So what explains that? Was Billy secretly a programmer on the MAME project this whole time, or is he a time traveller? That would be the only ways you could explain how the 1.04 million tape exhibits the same anomaly as a version of MAME from months into the future. Nevertheless, the community (and you, by extension), labelled this MAME footage without ever considering the full facts.
    Hi Sharkeylaser - I'm not entirely sure if your comment is directed more at Tim than the wider TG community, but if the latter, I wanted to touch on this comment regarding MAME versions and what they would or wouldn't do in reference to the girder finger.

    I do recall discussion back in 2018 that the MAME version that existed at the time of the 1.047 million score couldn't draw the girder finger - the news circulated widely within 24 hours or so (I think it was brought up by Triforce and others at the Kong Off 6 Billy Mitchell Dispute Panel / Arcade Expo 4.0). However, there was more to that development. Other TG members confirmed that versions of MAME available at the time of the 1.047 million score could in fact display the girder finger following an adjustment to the software's refresh rate setting.

    In addressing the fact that earlier versions of MAME could ultimately display the girder finger with this game setting adjustment, it was then argued in the Billy Mitchell Evidence Package (September 2019) that “there is no logical alternative explanation of why Billy Mitchell, or somebody working for him, would have changed the refresh rate to 60.6Hz, if he was playing MAME…The 60.6hz refresh rate does not match the arcade settings, meaning it would only create differences between MAME and the arcade, which would be stupid for someone to do if they were trying to pass off MAME as arcade.”

    In fact, the refresh rate adjustment is a common experience in the MAME community for the simple reason that gamers are a demanding lot and wanted to create a gameplay experience as close to the arcade original as possible. Many classic arcade games run at 60.6Hz, including Donkey Kong. Failure to make this adjustment can result in gameplay stuttering, which would directly impact the quality of the game and of any recording output from it. Discussions about tweaking settings by MAME users for the ideal arcade experience stretch back to MAME's first release in 1997 - here's an exchange on alt.games.mame from 2003 that discusses gameplay issues related to improper refresh rates, and possible solutions including different MAME flavors:

    https://groups.google.com/d/msg/alt....Q/nGft9DSsfGwJ

    People here absolutely have recourse to share new information after a dispute review decision is rendered; there is no benefit to the TG or wider gaming community to stand pat and defend a wrong decision for the sake of defending a wrong decision. Like you, I would really like to see the evidence that Guinness used and that it be made public, especially since any new evidence they examined would be directly relevant to TG's consideration of the matter as well. In fact, it seems counter-intuitive not to share the information publicly.
    Last edited by The Evener; 06-26-2020 at 11:57 AM.
  4. 06-24-2020, 12:10 AM
    What Billy Mitchell wanted most was all his Guinness world records back in the book and he got it.
    With Guinness book of world records he will be remember for years to come.

    Twin Galaxies is just about reputation.

    Twin Galaxies member Dispute Discussion: Jeremy Young - Arcade - Donkey Kong - Points [Hammer Allowed] - Player: Billy L Mitchell - Score: 1,062,800 it tarnished reputation, it made him look bad in the gaming community & world wide, then people looked at him differently not as a idol but as someone that cheated just to gain a record by any means,that he resorted to using MAME for Arcade game Donkey Kong & Billy Michell was embarrassed, his invincible armor was broken.

    The evidence of the finger changed all that, funny can you imagine the karmais a word meaning the result of a person's actions as well as the actions themselves. It is a term about the cycle of cause and effect. According to the theory of Karma, what happens to a person, happens because they caused it with their actions. but this time he got the finger.
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    reputation meaning
    he beliefs or opinions that are generally held about someone or something."his reputation was tarnished by allegations that he had taken bribes"
    a widespread belief that someone or something has a particular habit or characteristic.

    Billy is not looking on getting his records back on Twin Galaxies but pay back vengence to hurt Twin Galaxies If he wins money, having Twin Galaxies pay all court cost, attonry fee, damages of reputation etc. and whatever he that was agreed upon after the verdict.
    Last edited by JJT_Defender; 06-24-2020 at 12:13 AM.
  5. 06-24-2020, 02:40 AM
    Quote Originally Posted by JJT_Defender View Post
    What Billy Mitchell wanted most was all his Guinness world records back in the book and he got it.
    With Guinness book of world records he will be remember for years to come.

    Twin Galaxies is just about reputation.

    Twin Galaxies member Dispute Discussion: Jeremy Young - Arcade - Donkey Kong - Points [Hammer Allowed] - Player: Billy L Mitchell - Score: 1,062,800 it tarnished reputation, it made him look bad in the gaming community & world wide, then people looked at him differently not as a idol but as someone that cheated just to gain a record by any means,that he resorted to using MAME for Arcade game Donkey Kong & Billy Michell was embarrassed, his invincible armor was broken.

    The evidence of the finger changed all that, funny can you imagine the karmais a word meaning the result of a person's actions as well as the actions themselves. It is a term about the cycle of cause and effect. According to the theory of Karma, what happens to a person, happens because they caused it with their actions. but this time he got the finger.
    Name:  image.png
Views: 227
Size:  393.2 KB

    reputation meaning
    he beliefs or opinions that are generally held about someone or something."his reputation was tarnished by allegations that he had taken bribes"
    a widespread belief that someone or something has a particular habit or characteristic.

    Billy is not looking on getting his records back on Twin Galaxies but pay back vengence to hurt Twin Galaxies If he wins money, having Twin Galaxies pay all court cost, attonry fee, damages of reputation etc. and whatever he that was agreed upon after the verdict.
    Hi Gamers

    On versions of MAME:

    On this thread on post 156 and 157:
    I did post for those that want to investigate into OTHER versions of non-standard MAME that do enable the gamer to set refresh rate and graphics rendering at lower level than standard MAME versions/ports.

    https://www.twingalaxies.com/showthr...=1#post1076754

    https://www.twingalaxies.com/showthr...=1#post1076759

    So to look at standard MAME comparison is not sufficient - if one really wants to find the needle in the haystack you have to look at the non-standard MAME ports as well.

    On Graphics Rendering:

    Would be fantastic if someone else that can read Z80 program code or really understood and explain in better means than I do
    (below), how arcade render the images from provided sprites from the PCB to the CRT in the exact steps.

    In summary from my understanding "way back then, please correct me where my memory fade me...):

    In essence rendering in arcade machine is not 100% the same as PC/Mac.

    In Z80 program code the exact memory addresses are pointed to what small "snippet/raster image" must contain/hold at that memory location. Each sub-image must certain sprites - therefore building up the larger image what must be / to be displayed
    at the exact memory starting at a specific memory address for that sprite.

    So it is impossible for Arcade to starts render an image one memory block left from original offset as in the case of MAME.

    Girder finger starts one position or more positions from original memory address offset because the whole image was
    flushed to the screen as a whole.

    When one look at Arcade the screen point position at memory code and sprite position in memory code always match
    and can go in an offset position but not producing a bleeding image sprite but the "small sprite itself".

    See here examples what can go wrong with Donkey Kong video.
    http://www.brasington.org/arcade/tech/dkj/#video
    http://www.brasington.org/arcade/tech/dk/

    Example of sprites in incorrect places from above URL.
    http://www.brasington.org/arcade/tech/dk/bad7c-3.gif

    A .pdf attached as DonkeyKongGraphicGlitches.pdf in case the URL get lost.






    You will see the only means to reproduce is to have faulty ROM or RAM chips (depends upon the chip):

    "Replace each ROM file used by the game PCB with a "faulty" ROM file that contained all ones. So, one by one, one would save a copy the original ROM file, then overwrite it with a "faulty" ROM file of the same size, but that contained. Then one would run the game and see what happened. Assuming the game would function, one would then take various snapshot images of that particular failure and note down what matched with which chip failures. "

    So as one person mention hardware do have margin of error but in the case of Arcade PCB, the chip is either working or not working or voltages and pins on chips can be "shorted" which can made sprites go off the offset of the memory block but not "bleeding a partial image like a "finger". No partial staircase or finger sprite exist in DK at all only small inner whole sprites that makes up that one WHOLE image to be drawn at a SPECIFIC memory location.
    Attached Images Attached Images  
    Attached Images Attached Images
    Last edited by francoisadt; 06-24-2020 at 02:59 AM.
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  6. 06-24-2020, 03:59 AM
    Quote Originally Posted by francoisadt View Post
    On Graphics Rendering:
    Would be fantastic if someone else that can read Z80 program code or really understood and explain in better means than I do (below), how arcade render the images from provided sprites from the PCB to the CRT in the exact steps.

    Although it appears to have stalled before completion, there is quite a bit of information here in a commented disassembly of the arcade Donkey Kong roms:

    github.com/furrykef/dkdasm

    Also, here is an interesting article about using MAME's debugger:

    dorkbotpdx.org/blog/skinny/use_mames_debugger_to_reverse_engineer_and_extend_ old_games/

    docs.mamedev.org/debugger/index.html

    I'm uncertain if its a debugger for CPUs emulated by MAME, or just a debugger for MAME itself. I'm guessing the latter, which would still be useful, but not as surgical as being able to set watches and breakpoints in the rom's code. More on this later.

    Edited to add: Ok, I should have taken half a minute to read my link above. The debugger is for MAME's process, not the virtual process being emulated.
    Last edited by grinder2112; 06-24-2020 at 10:12 AM. Reason: speeling
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  7. 06-26-2020, 09:05 AM
    It has already been addressed elsewhere in this thread, but I wanted to briefly comment on this speculation:

    Quote Originally Posted by sharkeylaser View Post
    Finally, what can I add to all this? Some knowledge of electronics. If I pick up a random 100 ohm resistor, it has four colored bands on it. One brown, one black, and another brown band indicate that in a perfect world, this resistor would have 100 ohms of resistance. The fourth band, however, is gold. This indicates a +-5% tolerance, so in reality, assuming the resistor is free of defect, that 100 ohm resistor might read anywhere from 95 ohms to 105 ohms. Even though your electronics may work just fine, they are, in fact, far from perfect, unless you get industrial grade components where that +-5% might cause a machine to swing and kill your coworker. No arcade cabinet was ever manufactured with industrial grade components, so all machines are off spec by some amount. This is especially true for older components that are not just worn, but also were manufactured many years ago when tolerances were looser and components were less efficient. The "investigation" done by Jace Hall never took a look at what the impact of those looser tolerances are, nor what impact age may have on a board, nor what would happen if just one failed component were replaced with a modern equivalent.

    A Donkey Kong PCB is a purpose-built digital computer. Although inputs and outputs could be analog, the logic of its operation is entirely discrete, and does not need "tuning" the way an analog computer might. Although failed and out-of-spec components can effect the computer's operation, not in a way that would so radically alter its rendering order, as we see in those fraudulent video tapes.

    I probably should not attempt an analogy here, but it's a bit like suspecting gritty pencil lead might cause an applicant to accidentally enlist in the army when they were attempting to be hired by a McDonald's franchisee.
    Last edited by grinder2112; 06-26-2020 at 10:47 AM. Reason: speeling
  8. 06-27-2020, 09:27 PM
    I'm surprised nobody has commented on exactly what Bill's legal team's 40 Page Document is stating and wanting removed in a potential case and in contrast TG's Reply with Text Message hard evidence of the contrary.
    This is laughable if it doesn't get thrown out immediately.
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  9. 06-27-2020, 10:06 PM
    i'm working through it, i do have some questions but i'm not asking yet since perhaps they'll be answered later with in the papers. I have noticed more names being named. If those people read it i can definitley see them voicing disapproval.
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  10. 06-27-2020, 10:21 PM
    Quote Originally Posted by maximumsteve View Post
    I'm surprised nobody has commented on exactly what Bill's legal team's 40 Page Document is stating and wanting removed in a potential case and in contrast TG's Reply with Text Message hard evidence of the contrary.
    This is laughable if it doesn't get thrown out immediately.
    Oh no no, this stuff is WILD! Just a lot to go through, and a lot happening everywhere all at once. Have to find all the places where they said the opposite of what they're saying now.
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