Post Verdict Dispute Discussion: Jeremy Young - Arcade - Donkey Kong - Points [Hammer Allowed] - Player: Billy L Mitchell - Score: 1,062,800

  1. 07-29-2020, 11:59 PM
    Billy is issuing legal threats? Who could’ve ever foreseen this...
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  2. 07-30-2020, 03:43 PM
    Quote Originally Posted by datagod View Post
    The fact of the matter is that you are not a mind reader. Claiming to know what somebody is thinking is a form of Loserthink(tm). Scott Adams speaks about it in his book Loserthink: How Untrained Brains are Ruining America. Great book.
    I'm sorry. I indeed do not know what other people are thinking; however, I never once criticized his thoughts with that remark. I am criticizing what he's doing. I have taken classes on public speaking and even joined a public speaking club (Toastmasters Intenational: UNO Lakeside). While I'm not perfect at it, I'm still able to use my knowledge to point out issues with how he's speaking in front of an audience.
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  3. 07-30-2020, 04:52 PM
    Quote Originally Posted by Streetwize View Post
    I'm sorry. I indeed do not know what other people are thinking; however, I never once criticized his thoughts with that remark. I am criticizing what he's doing. I have taken classes on public speaking and even joined a public speaking club (Toastmasters Intenational: UNO Lakeside). While I'm not perfect at it, I'm still able to use my knowledge to point out issues with how he's speaking in front of an audience.
    My only point is that your comment "Fact of the matter is, BM thinks he's a professional speaker "
    makes a claim that it is a fact that billy thinks X. I am not a trained public speaker, but I have been watching Scott Adams podcast for about 3 years now. I bought his book Loserthink, and now I enjoy pointing it out when I see it.
  4. 08-01-2020, 08:03 AM
    Howdy, folks! So I'd like to take a moment to collect evidence some people have found regarding the claim from Team Billy that Kimberly "Morningdove" Mahoney was acting as an official Twin Galaxies referee for the FAMB score in 2007.

    For now, I'm setting aside her presence at Boomers in 2010. She indeed was an official referee-at-large in 2010, and we know she was present with the Billy crew at Boomers one afternoon, because we see her in one of their silly stunt videos. We don't see an actual Donkey Kong PCB in the board swap video, and we don't see any actual Donkey Kong play, and we don't see a high score on the machine, but we do see Mahoney there with the others (along with daylight pouring in through exterior doors during what should've been the middle of the night, but that's another story we've already covered). Instead, I'm focusing on her alleged presence at the mortgage brokers convention where Billy claimed he achieved 1.05m, and how her presence as a referee for that score appears to be a retcon.

    This claim originated in Billy's September 2019 evidence packet, although not much was made of it at the time. This was because there were so many much more outlandish lies being thrown around in that document which drew our focus instead, and because Mahoney herself had not issued a statement. But let's start with that document. Here was Mr. Mullet himself, talking about the FAMB score in his signed declaration on page 53 of 156:

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    Here's Todd Rogers, on the following page, saying the same thing:

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    And here's Walter Day on page 107 of 156, also reiterating that Mahoney was there in an official capacity.

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    Billy reiterates this multiple times in his recent court declaration. First, on page 4 of 41:

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    Let's set aside the laughable notion that Twin Galaxies dictated score adjudication terms to Billy, when all evidence we have suggests he and his friends simply got together, told TG staff he had gotten a high score, and when necessary made threats of retaliation if they didn't recognize it (and that was only when Walter Day wasn't present to rubberstamp Billy's claims without objection).

    Billy continues across pages 4 and 5:

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    Billy once again cites Mahoney as being an official referee both for his 2007 FAMB score of 1.05m (which we know to be cheated) and for his 2010 Boomers score of 1.062m (also cheated), on page 24:

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    In Billy's declaration exhibits, on page 40 of 214, Todd has a signed statement covering both the 1.05m and 1.062m scores. You know what he's gonna say:

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    Lastly, we get to the woman herself. In Billy's declaration exhibits, pages 45 and 46 of 214, Kimberly "Morningdove" Mahoney finally speaks up with a statement, signed Sept. 30, 2019 (too late for inclusion in Billy's legal threat earlier that month). I'm going to include the entirety of her statement below. You don't have to read all of it if you don't want, but I want you to notice specifically her claim of when she started working as an official Twin Galaxies referee:

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    (I think someone already asked the question in this thread, if the machine was padlocked, and there was no way to access the inside of the cabinet during the event, then how can she be so sure "the machine was a legitimate Donkey Kong arcade machine with original unmodified hardware"?)

    Okay, so they all have their stories straight. They figured it out. Morningdove Mahoney was definitely for sure for reals at the event as an official Twin Galaxies referee. Good thing, too! After all, Todd's word is (to use polite language) significantly compromised. Billy's pretty lucky that this second referee has emerged to help corroborate their story.

    Problem is, that's not what the record reflected at the time.

    Let's start with the official Twin Galaxies press release. It says two referees ("experts at Donkey Kong") would later review the tape. (Side note: Remember above how Billy said "The recording of this score was for entertainment purposes and future use, and at no point was it adjudicated by Twin Galaxies"?) But the only referee noted as being on-site for the score was Todd Rogers.

    https://web.archive.org/web/20070919...x?c=19&id=1465

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    Note how this is in contrast to the press release for the Boomers score three years later, which makes a point to mention Mahoney as a referee.

    https://www.twingalaxies.com/content.php/272

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    Getting back to the 2007 score, MTV's written coverage at the time, which included new details and new quotes from Mr. Mitchell himself, still attributed the on-site adjudication to Todd Rogers alone.

    http://www.mtv.com/news/1565744/donk...s-to-prove-it/

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    Almost two months after the FAMB event, Todd Rogers complained about Billy's portrayal in the movie King of Kong on the Digital Press forums. In doing so, twice did he describe his live verification of Billy's 1.05m (which he also mistypes as 1.5m), both times giving no indication whatsoever of another referee on site.

    https://forum.digitpress.com/forum/s...=1#post1242046

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    Gosh, what detail! Not only did Billy have Todd present as referee, but he also had a live feed of his play and another camera on a tripod. Odd no mention of a second referee, though. (Wait... Wasn't their excuse for submitting sketchy direct feeds that they didn't want to risk destroying a camera on a tripod? And where did this tripod footage go, anyway?)

    Not one to miss out on the fun, Robert Mruczek, who at the time was an ardent supporter of Billy and a believer in his scores, reiterated the Todd-only narrative on the Classic Arcade Gaming forums.

    http://www.classicarcadegaming.com/f...4.html#msg1664

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    Now, this is where you might point out that they don't literally directly say "There were absolutely no referees present other than Todd Rogers, whatsoever." You'd be pretty silly to think, through all these concerted attempts to legitimize Billy's FAMB event score, that they would've repeatedly failed to mention there were two referees and not just one, but if you were desperate to explain all this away, I suppose that's the story you would go with.

    Unfortunately, Mahoney reached just a little too far in testifying that she was a Twin Galaxies referee starting in 2003. Because, you know, we have records for that.

    Let's start with this staff list from December, 2003:

    https://web.archive.org/web/20031207...-perl/staff.pl

    Nope, not on there. But hey, you might say, maybe it hadn't been updated in a while.

    Well, here's the list, captured on February 11, 2004, after an update:

    https://web.archive.org/web/20040211...-perl/staff.pl

    Still no Morningdove. Todd's there. No Morningdove.

    Later that year, the list was completely redone for migration to TG's new website. Here's the list on August 10, 2004, still with no Morningdove:

    https://web.archive.org/web/20040810...ndex.aspx?c=15

    The list goes through a few iterations until this one, on December 11, 2005 (still with no Morningdove Mahoney):

    https://web.archive.org/web/20051211...ndex.aspx?c=15

    Note that that capture shows the first appearance of a referee named Christian Cram. We'll get back to her in a minute.

    The very next day is a new capture after another update. Still no Morningdove:

    https://web.archive.org/web/20051212...ndex.aspx?c=15

    Notice how, in the bottom list of "Trained referees available", they have three people listed as options for the New Hampshire area, but the only referee available in Florida is Todd Rogers.

    March 27, 2006. Walter Day's name is removed from the top list of "Twin Galaxies staff members", for some reason. Still no Morningdove:

    https://web.archive.org/web/20060327...ndex.aspx?c=15

    After Day's three month absence, he's restored to the list, as captured on June 18, 2006. But still no Morningdove:

    https://web.archive.org/web/20060618...ndex.aspx?c=15

    Flash forward to January 5, 2007. A few people, including David Nelson, are added to the top list of TG staff members. Also, very subtly, a list of regional refs for North America is added in the middle of the page, to go along with the referees-at-large listed at the bottom. But still no Morningdove Mahoney!

    https://web.archive.org/web/20070105...ndex.aspx?c=15

    March 15, 2007 reflects another update. Notice how Billy Mitchell's name and "Board of Directors" credit is removed from the top list, which surely has nothing whatsoever to do with any depictions of Twin Galaxies in any movies coming out around that time. But still, no Morningdove:

    https://web.archive.org/web/20070315...ndex.aspx?c=15

    Flash forward to June 29, 2007. Another update. A new name in the top list. A new ref for Europe and Australia. But still no Morningdove. This is getting to be crunch time. Will she become a ref in time for Billy's event in July?

    https://web.archive.org/web/20070629...ndex.aspx?c=15

    Well, the big day came and went. By August 6, 2007, Terence O'Neill had added MAME adjudication to his workload, but still no Morningdove.

    https://web.archive.org/web/20070806...ndex.aspx?c=15

    Up until now, we've had to go by Wayback Machine capture date, as TG was editing their referee list without notification. But starting here, they actually change the date of this document to reflect the most recent change. Here's the capture on September 11, 2007, showing the list change from September 10 (and still no Morningdove):

    https://web.archive.org/web/20070911...ndex.aspx?c=15

    October 15th update. A couple new names. Still no Morningdove:

    https://web.archive.org/web/20071027...ndex.aspx?c=15

    December 19th update. A new name, plus some new responsibilities for Adam Wood. There's now a designated "Twin Galaxies Editorial Staff" section. But still no Morningdove!

    https://web.archive.org/web/20071226...ndex.aspx?c=15

    January 17, 2008. They completely redid the list. Walter Day is "President and Chief Scorekeeper". Todd Rogers is a senior referee. All the categories are redone. No more list of regions. Instead there's just a list of referees-at-large to cover situations not covered by designated platform referees. Among the new names, as a referee-at-large, is Jennifer Carmichael. (We'll get to her as well in a moment.) But still no Morningdove Mahoney. Will she ever show up?

    https://web.archive.org/web/20080119...ndex.aspx?c=15

    April 27, 2008 represented another complete redo of the list. Surely, Morningdove shows up now, right?

    https://web.archive.org/web/20080530...ndex.aspx?c=15

    Nope, still not there.

    We're now up to June 18, 2008. Yet another update. New names like Lance Eustache. (Some of you remember him from the Triforce dispute in 2018.) David Nelson gets a promotion from Senior Referee to Chief Referee. But STILL no Morningdove?

    https://web.archive.org/web/20080807...ndex.aspx?c=15

    That brings us to the August 28, 2008 update, and finally, at long last, Morningdove Mahoney is added to the official list as a referee-at-large.

    https://web.archive.org/web/20080913...ndex.aspx?c=15

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    Morningdove claims to have "joined Walter Day's administration in 2003" specifically as a referee, but she doesn't show up on the list until August 2008.

    Now, I asked you to remember the names Christian Cram and Jennifer Carmichael. You might've picked up on the fact that, between the two of them and Morningdove Mahoney, that's three women. Women are of course half the total population, but very under-represented in these referee lists, for reasons we won't get into at this time. Well, someone pointed to me a forum post in May 2007, announcing Jennifer as the "2nd female member of the TG staff".

    https://www.twingalaxies.com/showthr...-Referee-Large!

    The first female staff member would not be Morningdove, but rather Christian Cram, who was on these lists for much of their duration.

    Now, I'm interested in the truth, which means I'm not looking to just sweepingly dismiss inconvenient facts. Some will astutely point out that Jennifer was announced as a ref-at-large via a forum post in May 2007, and yet was not added to the official list until it was overhauled in January 2008, despite a few smaller updates along the way. Could the same thing have happened with Morningdove Mahoney? Well, again, this is where common sense is helpful. We objectively know Jennifer was missed in a small number of staff list updates for eight months, and was included in the first complete overhaul of the list. Are we really supposed to believe Morningdove Mahoney got missed for dozens of updates, including multiple complete overhauls, consistently across the span of five years?

    In my due diligence, I reached out to one Robert Mruczek, longtime head referee for Twin Galaxies, and asked him if he recalled Morningdove ever being an official TG referee during his tenure. He issued the following response:

    By all means, go ahead and quote me that I do not recollect her as a referee prior to my departure from TG on 12/19/06 AND that I recollect Todd got her on staff AFTER I had left.

    Of course, that date of December 2006 given by Mruczek would still have hypothetically given her time to be added to the official referee roster prior to the July 2007 FAMB event (aside from the fact that she was objectively not on the public list), but it would not change the fact that she testified to having been a TG referee starting in 2003.

    But maybe you throw your hands up and say "Well, who knows? Maybe Morningdove Mahoney had a secret pact with Walter Day himself. Maybe Walter and Walter alone knew that she was acting as some sort of special secret agent referee strictly at his behest, and that no one else, not even the head referee, was allowed to know of her top secret mission." It would be a stretch, sure, but let's just entertain that last possibility.

    That brings us to the last item that was found. In 2006, a forum thread was started on Twin Galaxies, asking who would be in attendance for that year's Funspot tournament. (This was the year after the infamous incident with Billy sending in the 1.047m tape to be played.)

    https://www.twingalaxies.com/showthr...ttendance-list

    Morningdove was not on the confirmed list, but - not that it really matters - we know she attended as she appears in a few photos from that event posted to Mark Alpiger's website:

    http://www.classicarcadegaming.com/c.../mda/index.htm

    At any rate, following the event, Walter Day himself replied to the forum thread, openly asking for hometown information on a few people who were in attendance, for inclusion in a poster. One of those people was Morningdove Mahoney:

    https://www.twingalaxies.com/showthr...l=1#post607295

    It would seem Walter Day went from not knowing where Morningdove was from nor how to contact her in 2006, to four years later, making her Walter Day Collection card number THREE (behind only Billy Mitchell at #1 and Ralph Baer at #2).

    https://thewalterdaycollection.com/c...ngdove-mahoney

    https://thewalterdaycollection.com/c...ategory/arcade

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  5. 08-01-2020, 01:12 PM
    What I find interesting is that across the 8 or 9 phone calls that BM and Friends® made to me the Monday before the Big Bang event that they only mentioned that "Todd was present" "Todd was the referee" "Todd was there".

    Nobody mentioned Morningdove to me until some time later, after I raised the point that Todd was - at that point in time - no longer a referee and per Pete Bouvier's own edict was "no longer to be adjudicating scores"

    To me, it sounded like a retcon.
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  6. 08-01-2020, 01:42 PM
    Quote Originally Posted by OriginalPSP View Post
    What I find interesting is that across the 8 or 9 phone calls that BM and Friends® made to me the Monday before the Big Bang event that they only mentioned that "Todd was present" "Todd was the referee" "Todd was there".

    Nobody mentioned Morningdove to me until some time later, after I raised the point that Todd was - at that point in time - no longer a referee and per Pete Bouvier's own edict was "no longer to be adjudicating scores"

    To me, it sounded like a retcon.
    hold on thats interesting. was that documented anywhere? If todd wasnt allowed to ref scores, then whether or not morningdove could verify or couldnt has no bearing on whether or not his verification was valid. You know, if todd wasnt allowed to ref, and morning dove was, and morningdove did, fine, then billy gets to claim meeting the standards of the day but it creates the ugly issue or perjury for claiming todd verified it if he didnt.
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  7. 08-01-2020, 02:58 PM
    Quote Originally Posted by OriginalPSP View Post
    What I find interesting is that across the 8 or 9 phone calls that BM and Friends® made to me the Monday before the Big Bang event that they only mentioned that "Todd was present" "Todd was the referee" "Todd was there".

    Nobody mentioned Morningdove to me until some time later, after I raised the point that Todd was - at that point in time - no longer a referee and per Pete Bouvier's own edict was "no longer to be adjudicating scores"

    To me, it sounded like a retcon.
    actually wait a minute the whole that led to this was the ref list missing morning dove but those same links show todd was a ref. So i guess i have two questions
    1. Is there any documentation todd wasnt a ref
    2. Is there any reason why the website regularly erroneously for a long time to follow continued to claim todd was a ref?
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  8. 08-01-2020, 03:31 PM
    Quote Originally Posted by Snowflake View Post
    actually wait a minute the whole that led to this was the ref list missing morning dove but those same links show todd was a ref. So i guess i have two questions
    1. Is there any documentation todd wasnt a ref
    2. Is there any reason why the website regularly erroneously for a long time to follow continued to claim todd was a ref?
    The November 2010 snapshot of the TG Referee page reflects that Todd became Chief Evangelist. The previous snapshot preserved in the Wayback Machine dates 27 May 2010, where Todd in that case is listed as referee. Presumably the Referee page was updated between late May and October, but we don't know the exact date it occurred given the spacing between snapshots.

    https://web.archive.org/web/20101130...ndex.aspx?c=15

    However, the role change was actually announced back on 31 March 2010 (effective 1 March 2010):

    https://web.archive.org/web/20100419...x?c=27&id=2047

    Last edited by The Evener; 08-01-2020 at 03:40 PM.
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  9. 08-01-2020, 04:00 PM
    ah thx i was so focused on the earlier score even though big bang was clearly stated my brain was still seeing the mortgage brokers
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  10. 08-01-2020, 04:01 PM
    Correct.

    A few years prior... Walter's role was officially defined as TG's "Chief Evangelist". In other words, a figurehead. A "celebrity" figure to represent Twin Galaxies in public without any official day-to-day role. The "Chief Evangelist" was not a ref, adjudicator or anyone who had any decision making power at Twin Galaxies. Basically TG's President Jack Tunney.

    A short time before the Boomers / Big Bang farce, Walter "went to work on his music" and stepped out of the role. Pete actually WANTED Walter out of the role for reasons I never quite got filled in on fully. So Todd was bumped to the "Chief Evangelist". I was given Todd's "Deputy Chief Referee" role which was re-named to "Division Manager" at that time with Todd's move to "Evangelist"

    With the move, Todd was also removed as the referee to mail any tapes into. I remember that because it meant the consoles he was covering that others weren't covering fell into my lap until / unless someone else came on board who could cover the platforms in question.

    It's possible there's posts somewhere talking about this but hell if I know for sure. It might as well been a million years ago to me by now. I was informed that someone else on the staff at that time chimed in a couple years ago to vouch for my version of the series of events that went down there but I don't have first hand info on that. Might be in this thread somewhere. Might not be. Might not be informed correctly on that.

    But at the end of the day... Todd was long gone from "being an adjudicator" by the time the Boomers thing came along, which is why one of my points of contention that long evening where the Mitchell World Order worked to strongarm me into recognizing it was their "Todd was there. Todd saw it. Todd Todd" thing.

    At that point it was irrelevant if Todd witnessed it. And not a one of them on the calls that night mentioned Morningdove to me. Not BM... not Sanders.... not Walter and not Todd.

    Wasn't mentioned until later. I always took that as a counter to my note about Todd's status at that time.
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