Post Verdict Dispute Discussion: Jeremy Young - Arcade - Donkey Kong - Points [Hammer Allowed] - Player: Billy L Mitchell - Score: 1,062,800

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  1. 10-08-2021, 12:55 PM
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  2. 10-08-2021, 01:04 PM
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  3. 10-08-2021, 01:12 PM
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  4. 10-08-2021, 05:49 PM
    Quote Originally Posted by Snowflake View Post
    i took that rivalry as a bit different than actually catching billy. lots of people now who had their issues with billy are quick to say "i was right all along" but roy was the only one who i found evidence of actually pointing to cheating back in the day -- not that i know it all, far from it. you've found stuff on the interent i didnt know about, and i'm sure theres other things not on the net people have to be there in person to know. I would hope my statements about what i know dont come off as me implying theres nothing more to the story.
    Hey. Just remember that nobody is useless. We all have value somewhere. I admit I don't have much of a personal stake in this compared to many others here, but this is really interesting. I want to see this unfold to the fullest and despite not having the knowledge to do full investigation into TG's history, I think having a perspective from someone a generation or two later helps. Had I known about Todd Rogers back before I was in high school, I likely would have been defending him and ended up just as hurt as many others were here.

    Edit: Didn't Dr. Chien tell Dwayne that Mitchell's scores were fraudulent? I wish I could point to a source, but I believe Ersatz was the one who reported such.

    Quote Originally Posted by ProveAll View Post
    In a statement that was included in a court filing from last year, Walter Day said:

    "Throughout this process, some of the most trusted arcade experts have shared words about the plausibility of the claims made against Billy Mitchell. One of them being Todd Tuckey, a noted dinosaur in the arcade industry, who I personally trust. Tuckey, like others, pointed out a glaring issue with Twin Galaxies' assertions. What Twin Galaxies asserts about Billy Mitchell's score is simply not possible. There has never, and never will be, an 'emulation board' that plugs into a Donkey Kong machine. There is no emulation hardware that plugs into original Donkey Kong machines. It's simply impossible for anything but legitimate hardware to have been inside Billy Mitchell's machine."

    Apart from the truth, that Mr. Day's statement does not accurately reflect TG's position, the fact he would make such dogmatic assertions either reveals extreme naivete, monumental ignorance, or blatant dishonesty.

    Appealing to Todd Tuckey is an attempt to give his claims an air of credibility.

    I can't say if this is truly Todd Tuckey's sentiment, but he, of all people, should know better.

    Walter's statement is false, pure and simple, and no amount of appeals to "trusted arcade experts" will change that.
    Yes. The testimony Day presents is simply a strawman. It creates a false argument and strikes it down to make themselves look good. It hinges on the idea that his scores were done using an arcade cabinet. It's true that there is no way to put MAME on a PCB. MAME is computer software and needs something to run it. To put emulation on an arcade PCB is pointless. That's why dedicated computers run it instead. If someone were to try to put MAME on a DK PCB, then MAME would likely be lagging heavily while it runs DK as the PCB has to process MAME processing DK, and that would be too much. Not only that, but you would also lack the means to interact with the emulator; it would be impossible to cheat! To put things in perspective, I'll give a more modern example. Ten years ago PlayStation 2 emulation was only possible for a small group. Not only was it iffy, but it required a really powerful computer to run. Nowadays most solid computers are good enough for such emulation thanks to both stronger computer hardware and emulator optimizations. A CPU on any PCB is generally designed to run only what it was intended to run.

    For further proof of Race's claim, I'll provide these two links:
    http://forum.arcadecontrols.com/inde...topic=161154.0
    http://www.rayslogic.com/hardware/do...ykong2mame.htm

    Also, as a reminder: MAME is MAME, and nothing else. There is a common misconception that other emulators exist and/or MAME is just a catch-all term such emulators. That is not true. This takes but 10 minutes of research. MAME is the only arcade emulator that runs Donkey Kong. Any notable emulator by any other name USES MAME. FinalBurn is built off of MAME and support for DK was added in 2012. Retroarch is simply a front-end using cores from other emulators, including MAME and FinalBurn.
    Last edited by Streetwize; 10-11-2021 at 10:54 AM.
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  5. 10-08-2021, 08:19 PM
    Quote Originally Posted by Streetwize View Post
    Hey. Just remember that nobody is useless. We all have value somewhere. I admit I don't have much of a personal stake in this compared to many others here, but this is really interesting. I want to see this unfold to the fullest and despite not having the knowledge to do full investigation into TG's history, I think having a perspective from someone a generation or two later helps. Had I known about Todd Rogers back before I was in high school, I likely would have been defending him and ended up just as hurt as many others were here.

    Edit: Didn't Dr. Chien tell Dwayne that Mitchell's scores were fraudulent? I wish I could point to a source, but I believe Ersatz was the one who reported such.
    for your chien point i've only heard rumors. I guess i can confirm that rumor exists, but thats kinda sematnics to confirm the rumor exists without being able to confirm what the rumor references is real. I did in fact hear from a former dk world record holder that Dr.chien figured out billy was cheating but since, well, hes a grown up with a real career, he didnt wanna get bogged down in that drama.

    to the "perspective" of an active tg memeber, bro, i'm a yuge weirdo i can only speak for me not all of modern tg. but i think people need to remember there arent just two sides. People who used to defend billly and attack for billy later turned on him (shocker, billy screwed his lap dogs and now they hate him). But many of billy's former lap dogs, while correclty turning on him, never apologized to the people they attacked on behalf of billy and to this day stand by their attacks. There are NOT just two sides. some of billys former allies turned enemy are absoltuley NOT some homogenous group with the people who hate all cheaters.
    Last edited by Snowflake; 10-08-2021 at 08:21 PM.
  6. 10-10-2021, 01:46 AM
    Quote Originally Posted by ProveAll View Post
    In a statement that was included in a court filing from last year, Walter Day said:

    "Throughout this process, some of the most trusted arcade experts have shared words about the plausibility of the claims made against Billy Mitchell. One of them being Todd Tuckey, a noted dinosaur in the arcade industry, who I personally trust. Tuckey, like others, pointed out a glaring issue with Twin Galaxies' assertions. What Twin Galaxies asserts about Billy Mitchell's score is simply not possible. There has never, and never will be, an 'emulation board' that plugs into a Donkey Kong machine. There is no emulation hardware that plugs into original Donkey Kong machines. It's simply impossible for anything but legitimate hardware to have been inside Billy Mitchell's machine."

    Apart from the truth, that Mr. Day's statement does not accurately reflect TG's position, the fact he would make such dogmatic assertions either reveals extreme naivete, monumental ignorance, or blatant dishonesty.

    Appealing to Todd Tuckey is an attempt to give his claims an air of credibility.

    I can't say if this is truly Todd Tuckey's sentiment, but he, of all people, should know better.
    Small world, I remember getting into it with Tuckey because he didn't know the difference between "NOS" plastics and replacement plastics when pimping a restored pinball machine on Youtube. He tried to claim replacements were "NOS", but they actually often times have variations on the print that do not align the way the originals did in the machine.

    So yeah, Walter is guilty of a classic appeal to authority fallacy, especially since Todd is flat-out wrong if that's his position on retro-fitting emulation into arcade cabinets.
  7. 10-10-2021, 12:28 PM
    Quote Originally Posted by Streetwize View Post
    It's not just Roy who got his reputation ruined. PSP and Cat were destroyed as well.
    LOL! They were not destroyed. A lot of people grew tired of the "oh woe is me, misogyny!" and the endless manipulations of Cat. PSP posted MANY times that he was happy to move on from TG and has never looked back. He is out there doing his own thing.
  8. 10-10-2021, 02:40 PM
    Quote Originally Posted by datagod View Post
    LOL! They were not destroyed. A lot of people grew tired of the "oh woe is me, misogyny!" and the endless manipulations of Cat. PSP posted MANY times that he was happy to move on from TG and has never looked back. He is out there doing his own thing.
    I can't speak for Cat for much outside of the constant downing you give and what she has said about Rudy stalking her, but PSP has stated that many people started hating him once he started questioning Mitchell. The article he wrote lines up with a lot of what TG presented in its countersuit interestingly enough. Perhaps destroyed isn't true, but I don't think it's unreasonable to believe he was falling victim to the same toxicity that has ruined others. I'd be happy as hell too if I quit a job that held my salary hostage to make me condone acts that went against my morals.

    That said, I may have an idea what you mean now by unapologetic, Snowflake.
  9. 10-11-2021, 07:59 AM
    Quote Originally Posted by Streetwize View Post
    Also, as a reminder: MAME is MAME, and nothing else. There is a common misconception that other emulators exist and/or MAME is just a catch-all term such emulators. That is not true. This takes but 10 minutes of research. MAME is the only arcade emulator that runs Donkey Kong. Any notable emulator by any other name USES MAME. FinalBurn is built off of MAME and support for DK was added in 2010. Retroarch is simply a front-end using cores from other emulators, including MAME and FinalBurn.
    If you have any additional sources, documenting that MAME is the only emulator that runs DK, I would be interested in checking them out.

    Thanks
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  10. 10-11-2021, 10:53 AM
    Quote Originally Posted by ProveAll View Post
    If you have any additional sources, documenting that MAME is the only emulator that runs DK, I would be interested in checking them out.

    Thanks
    https://www.reddit.com/r/RetroArch/c...eb2x&context=3
    https://www.reddit.com/r/Games/comme...eb2x&context=3
    https://www.fbalpha.com/view/190/
    https://emulation.gametechwiki.com/i...cade_emulators

    I have conflicting sources. One person says FinalBurn is a fork of MAME, while a developer says FinalBurn instead took some of MAME's code. Support for Donkey Kong was added in 2012 (I need to fix that), so it's irrelevant regarding what was accessible during the timeframe of Mitchell's games.

    I can't verify that the list in the final link is 100% exhaustive, but these are generally the most-known emulators. FinalBurn is the only emulator that comes close to MAME, but a few years ago MAME merged with its sister emulator MESS to support console and handheld emulation. The rest of the emulators serve more dedicated purposes, some of which cover what MAME doesn't such as DAPHNE, Demul, and Model 2.

    I hope this helps.
    Last edited by Streetwize; 10-11-2021 at 01:54 PM.
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