Post Verdict Dispute Discussion: Jeremy Young - Arcade - Donkey Kong - Points [Hammer Allowed] - Player: Billy L Mitchell - Score: 1,062,800

  1. 08-06-2020, 04:29 AM
    Quote Originally Posted by The Evener View Post
    if Todd had full rights to confirm and verify the score in the DB himself
    Agree, lot of cases and such also in very small company a person can have many roles and "hats on" regardless what the actual "title" stating on some website or internal document. I do agree and make sense that someone like Todd could have presented to be a "referee" on this day. Nothing stops a person like Walter Day (back in his day) to ask for a "stand-in" or to request anyone working for TG to act as referee at that moment. It also depends upon who is available at spesific events then and there. Not always a "Black and White" case or "Do or Do not's".
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  2. 08-06-2020, 05:11 AM
    Quote Originally Posted by Barthax View Post
    The same could be leveled at . Datagod
    A charge could be leveled, but it would be baseless. I have NEVER tried to tear Twin Galaxies down, never competed with it, never swore to go away and not come back.
    Your friend, datagod

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  3. 08-06-2020, 07:45 AM
    i've thrown up my hands on finding the proof on another point, so i'll just state my understanding and see if anyone else can confirm

    francois just quoted actually another point i was meaning to well, "argue" would be strong a word, but basically yeah. The idea that simply being a ref would automatically mean the score would've been instantly verified and entered, while typically true i believe has two major issues in this one particular case
    1. I dont know if todd while chief evangelist has the technical ability to log in and do so, but the lack of such an ability wouldnt proof a lack of the right
    2. and theres the big one, donkey kong in particular was a very special game. they made an entirely new ruleset. PSPs statement hints at that without stating the rules, you can also very easily find no shortage of forum posts complaining about the new rules. I am however having a great deal of difficulty finding what those rules are. My point being, its totally possible that ecen someone we all agree was a ref wouldnt have been able to auto enter donkey kong, because well, its donkey kong.

    side note: In looking for the rules i was suprised to accidnetally find as recent as 2017 even tgsap created a new verification rule set for donkey kong thats crazy long. this is quite odd considering TGs rules are normally just "do you believe the score is valid" and adjudicators are allowed to use whatever metric they want to determine validity. now we have only 3 exceptions
    1. direct upload is required
    2. mame requires inp (at least i think thats a formal rule, if not, might as well be)
    3. donkey kong in particular has its essay length rule set

    personal note: i definitely understand anti mitchel sentiment and emotions in this. They made the new donkey kong rule set from what side stuff i read because they wanted to avoid king of kong style controversy in the future. That makes sense on the surface right? In order to make sure they dont get accused of any funny business or mitchel bias in the future make this new super thorough rule set. ok cool, thank you for making sure a new thorough rule set takes human bias out of the equation. but oh wait, whats this, mitchel doesnt have to follow the same rules on that rule set? doesnt that defeat the entire point? so the new rule set thats allegedly there to make sure to avoid controvery, in reality, only made things even harder for mitchel's competitors while not making verification harder for him. on the flipside, in mitchels defense "hate the game not the player". heck it was voted on after all, we have multiple confirmation of that, so this goes beyond psp, todd, and billy as the list of people that can be blamed. I find it hard to believe billy managed to intimidate more than half the voters. it would appear at least half of all the refs were in on it based on that vote.
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  4. 08-06-2020, 08:31 AM
    Quote Originally Posted by Snowflake View Post
    2. and theres the big one, donkey kong in particular was a very special game. they made an entirely new ruleset.
    Not sure which "tweak" of the rules this is but there's one at https://www.twingalaxies.com/content...ecording-Rules
    Lots of 1sts to be surpassed: what are you waiting for? Play the game, submit the score...
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  5. 08-06-2020, 10:37 AM
    Quote Originally Posted by datagod View Post
    A charge could be leveled, but it would be baseless. I have NEVER tried to tear Twin Galaxies down, never competed with it, never swore to go away and not come back.
    I'll try to remember where this quote is so I can hang it on your own future verbal noose... ;) again. :P
    Last edited by Barthax; 08-06-2020 at 10:40 AM.
  6. 08-06-2020, 10:40 AM
    Quote Originally Posted by Barthax View Post
    I'll try to remember where this quote is so I can hang it on your future verbal noose... again. :P
    oh snap, barthax just said hes packeting this
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  7. 08-06-2020, 10:43 AM
    Quote Originally Posted by Snowflake View Post
    oh snap, barthax just said hes packeting this
    Hehe, I don't understand that!
    Lots of 1sts to be surpassed: what are you waiting for? Play the game, submit the score...
  8. 08-06-2020, 10:46 AM
    Quote Originally Posted by Barthax View Post
    Hehe, I don't understand that!
    a "packet" a spy style envelop filled with dirt on others. it looks like you've just admitting to filing this away in your mcevoy packet. some who will remain nameless used to brag about their "packets" on others, i totally appropriated the phrasing and ran with it. alot of us now saying it mockingly of those who bluff about having packets, but every once in a while it turns out some people really do have packets.
  9. 08-06-2020, 11:01 AM
    Quote Originally Posted by Snowflake View Post
    i've thrown up my hands on finding the proof on another point, so i'll just state my understanding and see if anyone else can confirm

    francois just quoted actually another point i was meaning to well, "argue" would be strong a word, but basically yeah. The idea that simply being a ref would automatically mean the score would've been instantly verified and entered, while typically true i believe has two major issues in this one particular case
    1. I dont know if todd while chief evangelist has the technical ability to log in and do so, but the lack of such an ability wouldnt proof a lack of the right
    [snip]
    To touch on the 'chief evangelist as verifying ref but merely lacking the credentials to log into the TG database to update the score' angle, I would simply wonder then why a simple email from Todd to a referee colleague to input his live verified score wasn't undertaken. There was no need to have the refs debate the issue hours before the Big Bang announcement if such an avenue existed. Sure, have the announcement ceremony anyway, but no need to have a tense back and forth between Sanders/Mitchell and Nelson as the refs conducted a secret ballot in Ottumwa.

    Quote Originally Posted by Snowflake View Post
    personal note: i definitely understand anti mitchel sentiment and emotions in this. They made the new donkey kong rule set from what side stuff i read because they wanted to avoid king of kong style controversy in the future. That makes sense on the surface right? In order to make sure they dont get accused of any funny business or mitchel bias in the future make this new super thorough rule set. ok cool, thank you for making sure a new thorough rule set takes human bias out of the equation. but oh wait, whats this, mitchel doesnt have to follow the same rules on that rule set? doesnt that defeat the entire point? so the new rule set thats allegedly there to make sure to avoid controvery, in reality, only made things even harder for mitchel's competitors while not making verification harder for him. on the flipside, in mitchels defense "hate the game not the player". heck it was voted on after all, we have multiple confirmation of that, so this goes beyond psp, todd, and billy as the list of people that can be blamed. I find it hard to believe billy managed to intimidate more than half the voters. it would appear at least half of all the refs were in on it based on that vote.
    I have an idea why this broader discussion could have relevance outside of what we're talking about here, but returning to your questions and building on what Barthax mentioned --

    The rules were revised in February 2008 to require a high degree of verification when scoring over a million points:

    February 2009 (reflects rule change instituted 15 Feb 2008)
    https://web.archive.org/web/20090218...&gi=3852&vi=22

    These "enhanced rules" were dropped by March 2010, replaced by Donkey Kong Recording FAQ

    March 2010
    https://web.archive.org/web/20100306...&gi=3852&vi=22

    The rules cited by David Nelson that Mitchell should have reached out to TG in advance to select a neutral referee dates from the 1998 TG rule set. I'd have to consult the later editions of the TG Book of records (2005 and 2007 I think?) to confirm the language. Basically, if you were competing on what was called a mature arcade video game, you had to have a dialogue with TG. "The game becomes 'mature' when the high score becomes so exhausted that the amount of practice and continuous playing needed to budge the score up even one further point is so extreme that even the best two or three players can no longer take the time to do it." [Definition from Walter Day (1998 edition)]

    In the rules there's some attention to "games played in people's basement": namely, in order to attest to gameplay and settings and have the score accepted by TG, players had to bring three witnesses together "approved by Twin Galaxies ahead of time." However, "this offer is not available if this involves a 'mature' game. This has to be arranged ahead of time through Twin Galaxies so the situation can be thoroughly examined."
    Last edited by The Evener; 08-06-2020 at 11:05 AM.
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  10. 08-06-2020, 11:12 AM
    Quote Originally Posted by The Evener View Post
    To touch on the 'chief evangelist as verifying ref but merely lacking the credentials to log into the TG database to update the score' angle, I would simply wonder then why a simple email from Todd to a referee colleague to input his live verified score wasn't undertaken. There was no need to have the refs debate the issue hours before the Big Bang announcement if such an avenue existed. Sure, have the announcement ceremony anyway, but no need to have a tense back and forth between Sanders/Mitchell and Nelson as the refs conducted a secret ballot in Ottumwa.
    because as we touched on before todd wasnt supposed to verify this particular score mainly because of the bias and proper channels not gone through. Players dont select their ref, twin galaxies does. remember i'm arguing a more detailed point about if todd was forbidden across the board from verifying scores. i'm not arguing he was allowed to verify this one. clearly this one upset higher ups and required a vote. So todd not being able to directly enter wouldnt prove he didnt have the right, todd not being able to simply send an email also doesnt prove he was stripped of such abilites across the board, likewise refs taking issues with this particular score being witnessed by him wouldnt prove he was denied the right to verify across the board. admittedly a more pedantic point not relevant to the end conclusion that billy's score violated procedure to be validated, but as you pointed out, we never know what detail will matter when. I think my point on this keeps being slightly misread, take it completely literally on facevalue. this is about defending the score, its about the claim todd's right to verify scores was blanketly stripped.
    Quote Originally Posted by The Evener View Post


    I have an idea why this broader discussion could have relevance outside of what we're talking about here, but returning to your questions and building on what Barthax mentioned --

    The rules were revised in February 2008 to require a high degree of verification when scoring over a million points:

    February 2009 (reflects rule change instituted 15 Feb 2008)
    https://web.archive.org/web/20090218...&gi=3852&vi=22

    These "enhanced rules" were dropped by March 2010, replaced by Donkey Kong Recording FAQ

    March 2010
    https://web.archive.org/web/20100306...&gi=3852&vi=22

    The rules cited by David Nelson that Mitchell should have reached out to TG in advance to select a neutral referee dates from the 1998 TG rule set. I'd have to consult the later editions of the TG Book of records (2005 and 2007 I think?) to confirm the language. Basically, if you were competing on what was called a mature arcade video game, "the game becomes 'mature' when the high score becomes so exhausted that the amount of practice and continuous playing needed to budge the score up even one further point is so extreme that even the best two or three players can no longer take the time to do it." [Definition from Walter Day (1998 edition)]

    In the rules there's some attention to "games played in people's basement": namely, in order to attest to gameplay and settings and have the score accepted by TG, players had to bring three witnesses together "approved by Twin Galaxies ahead of time." However, "this offer is not available if this involves a 'mature' game. This has to be arranged ahead of time through Twin Galaxies so the situation can be thoroughly examined."
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