Post Verdict Dispute Discussion: Jeremy Young - Arcade - Donkey Kong - Points [Hammer Allowed] - Player: Billy L Mitchell - Score: 1,062,800

  1. 10-30-2019, 07:01 PM
    Quote Originally Posted by Snowflake View Post
    not true, i mean yes its true you only wanted one take away because it is you who picks and chooses. too bad, you no longer get to control the conversation with your cover ups and "rounding" of impossible scores anymore. your commentary that you deny providing was very biased and sought to take things out of context pretending steve was treated oh so failry, when in reality, sure i agree steve wasnt hated, but no he was not treated fairly due to the bias against roy


    RTM REPLY - hopeless arguing with you. If you want to seek out the negatives in every single post and advance your agenda go right ahead...keep up with the tunnel-vision, knock yourself out.

    No one is trying to "control" conversations...but you most certainly don't know how to HAVE conversations...you seek out adversity at every opportunity.

    Keep dredging up the old nonsense such as "rounding scores" from that one single thread which, a few posts later in that thread I retracted those words. Same old basis for conjecture.

    Believe what you want about Steve and Roy...your opinions are obviously set in stone.

    Back to my original posts these were 14+ year old threads which was the first concrete evidence to support some earlier statements made, but also to refute a comment made in the Billy Mitchell "Evidence Package", the main purpose of this thread. YOU decided to make comments about your anti-old TG agenda. Well done, you succeeded.
  2. 10-30-2019, 07:17 PM
    Quote Originally Posted by RTM View Post
    RTM REPLY - hopeless arguing with you. If you want to seek out the negatives in every single post and advance your agenda go right ahead...keep up with the tunnel-vision, knock yourself out.

    No one is trying to "control" conversations...but you most certainly don't know how to HAVE conversations...you seek out adversity at every opportunity.

    Keep dredging up the old nonsense such as "rounding scores" from that one single thread which, a few posts later in that thread I retracted those words. Same old basis for conjecture.

    Believe what you want about Steve and Roy...your opinions are obviously set in stone.

    Back to my original posts these were 14+ year old threads which was the first concrete evidence to support some earlier statements made, but also to refute a comment made in the Billy Mitchell "Evidence Package", the main purpose of this thread. YOU decided to make comments about your anti-old TG agenda. Well done, you succeeded.
    no i'm looking for ALL aspects and not just the few out of context aspects you want. Keep trying to bury things. Hey you had a good run, you protected todd and ron for a long time burying things and attacking anyone who tried to dig it up, only changing side at the last moment. And here you are, still doing the same now. Its not an opinion wen its a documented fact. The only thing hopeless is trying to get you to admit what you already know.

    the rounding, shouldnt never even been one thread, and it was a deep argument, that you still owe me an apology for for bashing me for saying we shouldnt round. and it actually wanst even truly just one since even after you backed down -- only because it was proven the score was wrong for other reaons -- you shortly there after defended other scores with impossible digits yet again going back to the idea that impossible digits dont matter. so no, you never backed off the stance that impossle digits are "picking nits" and that we should just let the fake scores stand

    you admit you only want one aspect focused on, you fault for showing full context and accuse me of tunnel vision? i cant really accuse you of tunnel vision thouh, cause you see all this, you just try to hide it from others. you have failed miserably in doing so, your run of hiding the truth is over.

    you dig up the old thread, and you think its fine for your agenda, i point out full context of the same thread and i'm awful for dredging up what you dreged up. you definitely get the award for biggest hypocrite of millenia

    we do both agree some concrete proof is in that thread though. too bad the funny thing about the truth is, you cant just take the parts you like.

    still waiting for you do a game of dodge 'em without a blindfold since apparently you think its easy with one.
    Roy was Right
  3. 11-01-2019, 02:02 PM
    Another small (strike that, large) update on the CGE UK 2005 footage and related news. I had a chance to review the DVD that was authored by Robert Hazelby, which features video from different aspects of the gathering. In addition to the panel footage discussed previously, it includes a second discussant panel (not TG-related), footage of the arcade area, the retro console area downstairs, and an awards ceremony led by Walter Day. The DVD features interesting content and is worth a watch - I'll look to set up a download link soon for those interested (it's roughly a 4GB download). From my examination, there isn't anything new found on the DVD that speaks further to the 1.047 million playback at the event. Something that caught my eye was a poster that Day was handing out to award winners - it's a poster entitled "Billy Mitchell: Live at the CGE UK - August 13, 2005"

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    There's a LOT of text on that poster, so I'm curious how Mitchell was selling himself to an audience that generally didn't know who he was, particularly the months before the King of Kong was released. If anyone has a copy, I'm be grateful if you could upload a copy, or summarize the text here for the curious, especially if it references Donkey Kong in any way.

    As a related example, check out this photo of the TG table with the Pac-Man themed advert about "Searching for the world's most famous video game player, Billy Mitchell."

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    Even at the panel, Day went out of his way to single out Mitchell for introduction as the world's most famous video game player. I haven't seen too many examples where famous people promote themselves as famous people. Of course, there are areas of life like a given sport where a group of individuals stand out as "famous." But usually that fame is spread by word of mouth by friends, the media, or something you become sensitive to yourself if you become part of that sport community - those who are known and stand out. Besides outbursts of "I'm the greatest in the world" by some well-known sports figures, the constant drumbeat of promoting ones generic "fame" rather than a specific feat seems unusual.

    Getting back to the 1.047 million score, it's funny how you can search the internet, and months later, a completely new item pops up based solely on your keyword combination. In this case, I was searching for content related to CGE UK 2005, and this article came up in the search results. It features an interview with Seth Gordon, Steve Wiebe, and Steve Sanders:

    https://trouble.city/chudcom/11417/e...s-king-of-kong

    There's nothing brand new per se, but interesting anecdotes from the three. On the issue of the 1.047 million score in KoK, Gordon said something interesting about Mitchell's comfort about the score:

    Seth: "What we were aware of was that Billy had always talked about how you've got to do it live for it to really count. Then the tape had, again, such spectacle around it that it felt like the intention was for it to count. Then when he agreed with Walter [Day] that the tape could be submitted - later on he had second thoughts about that, by the way - and the score entered that night, Walter was a huge fan of Billy submitting that score. He was saying, "I don't know why he doesn't just submit it. We've all seen it. It should count." But I don't think any of that took into consideration how that would seem to Steve, especially when he'd been asked to travel across the country to prove himself."

    We saw back when Weibe and Mitchell both co-submitted their own videos to RTM to be adjudicated for the first million points scores (this is a year or two before King of Kong) that when Wiebe's was disqualified - for using a double DK board I think - Mitchell immediately withdrew his tape and score. Such a move always struck me as odd - why would you back out when the field is now wide open to claim uncontested the first recorded million score on DK? Back in 2000, it was Mitchell's stated goal on a podcast to clinch that score because "people said it couldn't be done." I think we could speculate that a fear of discovery about how the game was actually made might have induced a certain level of stress, and so when the immediate need to contest Wiebe for the first million point game was removed, Mitchell backed out - maybe hoping to clinch the first million on real hardware. Then with the 1.047 million, Mitchell apparently wavers, but Day is eager to promote the prowess of the world's most famous video game player.

    EDIT: It bears worth remembering that Wiebe achieved 985,600 on the very first day he was there, on his third game. That's spitting distance of one million, and not only is Wiebe in position to get another world record, he's sitting pretty to clinch the first verified million point game - live and witnessed by TG staff - the very title that Mitchell backed out from securing himself earlier. What's Mitchell to do? Remember what FirebrandX said - Mitchell is keen on milestone "I was the first" achievements, and after Pac-Man, the first million is his next "I was first" goal. Recall from KoK, it's evening and Brian Kuh borrows a phone to call Mitchell, now the 1.047 million tape is "more important than ever." Does Mitchell agree to have it aired publicly, with a bounty attached to ramp up the pressure on Wiebe on his second day of attempts? Does he go further, and have it verified, just in case Wiebe pulls off something crazy and gets over the million point line and steals his "I was first" thunder?

    Then when the film is nearing release and Mitchell learns that his tape submission makes him look hypocritical - along with Wiebe's last minute submission that beats out Mitchell at film's end - Mitchell decides that he has to act. So just a few weeks before the film hits wide release, Mitchell pulls off this miracle game at a broker's convention as his personal "gotcha" towards Gordon and Cunningham for how they made him look. And then it's downhill from there.
    Last edited by The Evener; 11-01-2019 at 03:26 PM.
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  4. 11-01-2019, 02:19 PM
    great find on the poster and i loved you commentary of promotinng fame. i noticed this myself some time back. its interesting, one other guy, who i wont mention, cause i'm really not trying to bash him so much as highlight the "fake it till you make it" "famous for being famous" approach.

    people want to meet famous people. it works. even a famous person you dont care about, or even knew about, you want your picture taken just that you can share with people who do care. heck i've seen people bragabout knowing someone who met a celebrity.

    so anyway, this other guy, he learned what a cycle it was. he'd push and push till some local news would do a piece on him, and eventually get it. he'd then go to conventions, and prove he was a famous gamer by pointing to the local news pieces. he'd then go to the local news and get more pieces on him by pointing to the convention to show how important he was, he'd then use those more news pieces to convince other conventions to get him. an entire cycle. conventions advertised him as the famous player from the news, the news reported him as the famous player from conventions. yet noone talked about what made him famous. only this guy, billy, and walter seemed to know that cycle.

    I would've never come up with the idea, so i admit its brilliant. i can only see it after noticing them do it. they figure out how to be famous for being famous before it was even a phrase. they figured out fame is a cycle, and you can break into it by lying even about famous, but once the first person believes the lie, now you have a seed that can spin into something real

    its actually really interesting.
    Roy was Right
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  5. 11-01-2019, 07:29 PM
    I know, it’s Friday night, I should be out having fun, but I have to wait on a few family errands. While waiting, I wanted to follow up on that CGEUK 2005 poster to see what it said about Mitchell as an introduction to a new UK audience.

    First and foremost, I have to extend a big thanks (which I’ve neglected to do previously) to Paul Dean @ CAGDC and acknowledge the wonder of the Internet Archive (Wayback Machine). Dean is a prolific documentarian, and he has proven time and time again that “things get lost on the Internet.” With his thorough review of news events at CAGDC, he’s preserved hyperlinks that have long disappeared from Google search results. Take these hyperlinks, and very often the Internet Archive has captured the original page. This has proven to be the only way to search the old TG - unfortunately, a lot of the older content in the current iteration of the site has disappeared through migrations, or it’s simply unrecoverable from a hyperlink perspective.

    Now, to frame the post, a reminder about Mitchell’s incredible claim from the Billy Mitchell Evidence Package:

    https://drive.google.com/file/d/1BMb...oQiuAdgcJ/view

    “When it comes to score submissions, Billy Mitchell holds himself to a high standard. Mitchell only submits scores performed at live events under proper adjudication. Mitchell has never submitted a score via video tape.” (page 6).

    “The King of Kong movie totally falsifies the narrative that Mitchell submitted the 1,047,200 performance…Robert Mruczek, the only person that contends the score was submitted, has conflicting testimony, and doesn’t tell a straight story. His story about Mitchell shipping him the tape is falsified.” (page 12)

    William “Billy” Mitchell Statement: “I have never, under any circumstances submitted a video taped world record. I only submit scores done live, in public venues, under proper adjudication…During the Twin Galaxies investigation, in early March [2018], I explained to Jace Hall that I never submitted the 1,047,200 performance.” (page 17)

    Pretty strong stuff that serves as an outrageous and insulting example of gaslighting. And I know - we long ago debunked this senseless claim. We raised hell, and put a prop under it. We’re well beyond the shadow of a doubt - we’re standing in blazing sunlight here.

    But after coming across this, I had to post it for public transparency and posterity. It comes from a Twin Galaxies article entitled, “Billy Mitchell Creates More Memorabilia to Document Video Game and Pinball History” (30 August 2006). The article outlines Mitchell’s passion for creating collectables like posters. “People will be playing video games and pinball for hundreds of years to come,” says Mitchell, ”so I want to leave historic memorabilia to commemorate what we did in our own time to show future generations that our contribution to the heritage of electronic gaming was significant.” The article includes a comprehensive archive of posters for the reader to sample. One poster I found particularly striking was presented on March 4, 2006 as part of “Twin Galaxies Coronation Day.”

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    The original link is here:

    https://web.archive.org/web/20070312...x?c=19&id=1191

    1,047,200 score? Check

    Special ceremony held at Rickey's Restaurant in Hollywood, Florida, where Mitchell works? Check

    Twin Galaxies-recognized world record? Check

    Verified through video tape submission? Check

    Award conferred to Billy Mitchell? Check

    Recognition by Walter Day? Check

    Limited 5 poster edition? Check

    So yeah, there you go - that’s how Mitchell debunks TG’s findings and restores his credibility.

    Final observation: if you go to the original link for the evidence package, Mitchell’s document is called “Billy Mitchell Evidence Package (First)”

    Do you think we’ll ever see a (Second)?
    Last edited by The Evener; 11-01-2019 at 09:03 PM.
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  6. 11-01-2019, 10:41 PM
    Quote Originally Posted by RTM View Post
    RTM REPLY - don't understand as my own scores of 1080 were among those removed when the category was dumped
    oh i missed this one before
    hold up, are you claiming you actually had the maxout submitted? i know you like to claim you and todd would do this one blindfolded, though i think you've burned your bridge of getting him to go in and vouch for you on this one now. but you're not just talking about doing it in private with todd as your witness? you're actually saying you had 1080? I just wanna make sure i dont get accused of wrongly putting words in your mouth. you are stating you actually got the 1080, so oh i dont know, if a copy of the scoreboard from then where to show up, and youhave less than 1080 that would be impossible right?
    Roy was Right
  7. 11-01-2019, 11:07 PM
    O, what a tangled web we weave when first we practice to deceive.





    Sir Walter Scott
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  8. 11-02-2019, 12:47 AM
    Quote Originally Posted by The Evener View Post

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    The original link is here:

    https://web.archive.org/web/20070312...x?c=19&id=1191

    1,047,200 score? Check

    Special ceremony held at Rickey's Restaurant in Hollywood, Florida, where Mitchell works? Check

    Twin Galaxies-recognized world record? Check

    Verified through video tape submission? Check

    Award conferred to Billy Mitchell? Check

    Recognition by Walter Day? Check

    Limited 5 poster edition? Check
    This post was substantial in its evidentiary content and was copied and duplicated into the sealed dispute case thread to ensure preservation as posted.

    Thank you.

    -Jace
    Jace Hall
    Head Custodian
    www.TwinGalaxies.com
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  9. 11-02-2019, 12:16 PM
    Following the latest information concerning the recognition of Mitchell's 1.047 million score, I thought it was time to give the last word on this subject to Mitchell himself -- courtesy of a 2007 interview. Without the glare of the dispute review to contend with, Mitchell was in complete agreement that thanks to his verified 1.047 million score, he was able to dethrone Steve Weibe from top spot. For added measure, it's worth noting that Mitchell's recollection in 2007 about the 1.047 million score echoes what RTM had to say on the subject recently, as well as what Walter Day originally shared back in 2008.

    RTM:
    Dispute review, page 35:
    https://www.twingalaxies.com/showthr...pe#post1053420

    "I hereby testify that after the 2005 event when we watched a low-quality VHS tape of Billy's 1.047M performance, I personally removed the associated score that Walter had entered into the TG database unbeknownst to me at the tail-end of that event.

    Further, several months after the event, I ended up receiving in the mail from Billy Mitchell the "master" tape of that performance, where the infamous "glitch" in the mid-high 600K range was no longer as prevalent.

    The tape was sent to me for the purpose of watching and adding into the TG database, which I did, and Walter was aware of this."

    The score was verified on January 31, 2006:

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    https://web.archive.org/web/20061122...c=22&sid=40527

    Walter Day:
    Issue #4 - Why Billy Mitchell's Videotape score was Accepted

    https://www.twingalaxies.com/showthr...e-was-Accepted

    "I, Walter Day, am solely responsible for accepting Billy Mitchell's videotaped score during the Funspot 2005 event. When Billy requested recognition for the score over the phone, asking that it be viewed as an official submission, as shown in the movie, I approved the score believing that the problem of the frame-skips would be minor and that Billy's original master tape -- when it would finally arrive -- would prove to be free of any defects that were seen on the "duplicate" tape shown in the movie. But, before the Funspot weekend was over, I realized I had made a mistake and planned on taking the score down when I returned to my office the next day, on Monday.

    But, before I could take the score down, Chief Referee Robert Mruczek, on behalf of the Twin Galaxies Board of Referees, took the score down. They also agreed that it was a mistake to accept the score. [snip]

    Interestingly, this means that Billy Mitchell's score was only published for 48 hours, and then the world title reverted back to Steve Wiebe's score of 985,600 points. Steve Wiebe's score of 985,600 points would remain the world record for the next 240 days. The movie does not reveal the fact that Twin Galaxies immediately reversed the decision to accept Billy's score and that Steve reigned as the champion for nearly three straight years (June 30,2003 - January 30, 2006)."

    240 days after the Funspot event in June 2005 works out to 8 months, bringing us to January 2006.

    Billy Mitchell:

    Broward Palm Beach Times, "Kongfrontation," John Linn, 6 September 2007
    https://www.browardpalmbeach.com/new...tation-6305987

    "We feel Mitchell's icy grip from afar as he plots against Wiebe via telephone. We see Walter Day — founder of Twin Galaxies, an organization that acts as gaming referee — squash Wiebe's aspirations of claiming a record through live play by posting Mitchell's seemingly dubious taped score as the new record on the TG website.

    Mitchell's betrayal of Wiebe is all there on film, as vivid as the colors on an arcade screen. So how could it be wrong?

    Easy, Mitchell says. It's all in the emphasis. That tape he sent with Doris Self? It was "just for fun," not an elaborate tactic to cheat Wiebe. The score from Mitchell's tape was yanked from TG's website just days later, and Wiebe actually reigned as Donkey Kong champion for the next eight months — a fact the film doesn't reveal."

    Eight months from early June 2005 brings us to the end of January 2006, the date where Mitchell's submission was confirmed as a world record. A special event ("coronation day") for Mitchell would be organized and held at his restaurant in Hollywood Florida to celebrate his million point achievement weeks later.
    Last edited by The Evener; 11-02-2019 at 03:33 PM.
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  10. 11-03-2019, 10:10 PM
    I'd like to extend a big thanks to Simon Roberts for sharing additional video footage of the Classic Gaming Expo - UK (CGEUK) gathering at Croydon in 2005. Simon originally worked with Robert Hazelby to compile footage and create a master DVD of the event. More recently, Simon set about to find the original footage on source tape, which he then transferred to digital format for upload to YouTube. Thanks Simon and Robert!

    In all cases, please click the image to start the video.
    CGE UK 2005 Part 1

    CGE UK 2005 Part 2

    CGE UK 2005 Wing Galaxies Q&A Panel


    The Twin Galaxies panel is a higher quality upload, and includes some "extra footage" that was originally edited from the "final cut" that was used on the DVD.

    Similarly, with Part 2 is the "walk about" that includes some additional footage, such as Mitchell standing among attendees as they watch the playback of a Pac-Man game that's at the TG table (the video equipment is the same one that Mitchell used for the playback of this 1,047,200 million DK game). I spotted the Pac-Man screen in some other CGEUK photos, but this is the most direct view I've seen. At first, I thought it was probably Mitchell's Pac-Man game, but then I recalled from Jace Hall's review of the Mitchell's DK tapes - for a moment towards the end of the review, he played back some of Mitchell's Perfect Pac-Man and the camera angle is different. After watching an Apollo Legend video featuring Dwayne Richard I thought it matched Chris Ayra's game, but then I remembered that Donald Hayes achieved a perfect game a couple of weeks before the London trip. I couldn't find any video of Hayes' Pac-Man run to compare at this point, though. So at this point, I'm not entirely sure whether it's Ayra's or Hayes' game that was featured at the event alongside Donkey Kong.

    CGEUK 2005 Pac-Man
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    Chris Ayra
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    Billy Mitchell
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    Enjoy!
    Last edited by The Evener; 11-03-2019 at 10:37 PM.
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