Post Verdict Dispute Discussion: Jeremy Young - Arcade - Donkey Kong - Points [Hammer Allowed] - Player: Billy L Mitchell - Score: 1,062,800

  1. 10-14-2020, 06:01 PM
    The 1,050,200 score was claimed to be a direct feed recording without sound capture using a Two Bit Converter to VCR. I understood that Apollo Legend analyzed the sound and concluded there were splices. Although he doesn't clarify in his video, presumably he separated the sound from the video as an export but the sound file would be silent, perhaps more akin to white noise if you cranked the speakers.
    Last edited by The Evener; 10-14-2020 at 06:06 PM.
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  2. 10-15-2020, 03:31 PM
    Quote Originally Posted by The Evener View Post
    The 1,050,200 score was claimed to be a direct feed recording without sound capture using a Two Bit Converter to VCR. I understood that Apollo Legend analyzed the sound and concluded there were splices. Although he doesn't clarify in his video, presumably he separated the sound from the video as an export but the sound file would be silent, perhaps more akin to white noise if you cranked the speakers.
    Audacity will tell you that by default you need an addon to support FFmpeg-based files such as MP4. I've done that already. I downloaded both submissions I found from here and they both have white sound throughout the entire video. Apollo stated in another video (youtu.be/JdvFSQFZfK8?t=214) that the spectrogram display was used to detect splices. The audio here was around the range between the first two levels.
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    Even if the game had sound, if white noise is present in the background it would have been harder to detect splices as it can help cover up sudden changes in audio.
    As for what this proves... Apollo is likely a liar.

    Anyway, wasn't the hearing supposed to be today? Kinda curious how things will end up.

    Edit: Can't remove the duplicate empty attachment.
    Last edited by Streetwize; 10-15-2020 at 03:36 PM.
  3. 10-15-2020, 03:43 PM
    Quote Originally Posted by Streetwize View Post
    Even if the game had sound, if white noise is present in the background it would have been harder to detect splices as it can help cover up sudden changes in audio.
    Consider zooming in and checking it at 20-30 second intervals. You can also zoom the khz, so that the noise becomes bigger/taller. But as you say I also suspect there is nothing to find.
  4. 10-15-2020, 03:56 PM
    Quote Originally Posted by benasselstine View Post
    Consider zooming in and checking it at 20-30 second intervals. You can also zoom the khz, so that the noise becomes bigger/taller. But as you say I also suspect there is nothing to find.
    Apologies for the image not showing up in my initial post, but I edited it shortly after the post. As you can see, I did look at it in such intervals. I'm not sure how high I needed to set the frequencies though.
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  5. 10-16-2020, 01:43 PM
    with the date being yesterday, i'm assuming for neither side to be loudly bragging that its been postponed again?
    Lode Runner Champion
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  6. 10-16-2020, 05:55 PM
    Quote Originally Posted by WCopeland View Post
    Without going into detail for obvious reasons, there are multiple ways to manipulate an INP with save states. It is also possible to remove the evidence of manipulation with the proper set of technical skills.
    This is correct. There are great gamers and novice gamers manipulating MAME INPs to win tournaments, or setting new world records.

    Quote Originally Posted by WCopeland View Post
    To follow up more on this, I originally thought requiring players to provide supplementary evidence on MAME INP submissions (showing hands, seeing multiple attempts over a live stream, etc) was a misstep and a bad idea.

    Knowing what I know now, I'd only consider the analysis program that's run on MAME submissions to be considered a sanity check, just like showing the PCB on an arcade submission. In the grand scheme of things, it doesn't prove much. If I was asked to bet my life on a submission's validity if given only an INP, I would not take that bet.
    In 2015, there was a serious finding of MAME INP manipulation. I then created a post at Twin Galaxies suggesting that all MAME INP submissions should have a live video recording. This should show hands on controls and the settings used, from game start to finish. A video recording of the playback of an INP file is not acceptable. The case in 2015 proved that a playback of the cheat INP can get through the best adjudicators at Twin Galaxies, and was accepted.

    Here are the links:

    To the point: https://www.twingalaxies.com/showthr...l=1#post800410

    The thread (it's long): https://www.twingalaxies.com/showthr...re-applicable)

    Since the revealed incident in 2015, Twin Galaxies later implemented that all MAME submissions must be submitted with a video recording. However a video recording of the playback of the INP file is acceptable, which is what most gamers provide. So in the case of the 2015 Galaga cheat, a video recording of the INP playback cheat, would still mean the game was accepted. And since we are aware that an INP cheat can be created which cannot be detected by any tools, then the current process for verification is not adequate and should be improved.

    I would like to see all records by gamers at Twin Galaxies to be correct, played fairly, and valued as great achievements. If we can also reduce the number of disputes now at Twin Galaxies, and for the future, then that is a good outcome.

    Perhaps one day, the MAME platform acceptable submission process will follow all the other platforms at Twin Galaxies, which the arcade platform already does. I am sorry this post does not resolve the current dispute on Donkey Kong, which by the way, I wish was all good and everything was OK. However in response to the important post from Wes in this thread, I suggest we should implement kaizen, help Twin Galaxies be a world leader in the best verification process, make the necessary improvements, and help all adjudicators to make their voting easier and with greater confidence.

    Arcade Have a Go - at Twin Galaxies - on now!

    https://www.twingalaxies.com/ooo
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  7. 10-16-2020, 10:54 PM
    BUMP.

    Does anyone know if the court case went ahead. If so, what happened ?



    john

    .
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  8. 10-17-2020, 02:20 AM
    Quote Originally Posted by WCopeland View Post
    the analysis program that's run on MAME submissions to be considered a sanity check
    The "analysis program" was only ever a batch file which collected the "unseen" information output by various things. It was never a true "analysis" of any kind: the first two steps of the batch file just confirm the Zip file is intact, for example. There was additional human-created content concerning the precise hexadecimal expectations of a valid INP and that was presented prior to a hex-dump of selected portions of the INP (start, middle & end). It was always left to the human to analyse information presented & this was rapidly lost or misunderstood by many people.
    Lots of 1sts to be surpassed: what are you waiting for? Play the game, submit the score...
  9. 10-17-2020, 06:07 AM
    Hopefully the court decided that anyone that ever says any form of "Billy Mitchell" and "Donkey Kong" in the same sentence they are put to death. SON OF A ***** I JUST DID IT!!!
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  10. 10-17-2020, 07:52 PM
    Quote Originally Posted by Barthax View Post
    The "analysis program" was only ever a batch file which collected the "unseen" information output by various things. It was never a true "analysis" of any kind: the first two steps of the batch file just confirm the Zip file is intact, for example. There was additional human-created content concerning the precise hexadecimal expectations of a valid INP and that was presented prior to a hex-dump of selected portions of the INP (start, middle & end). It was always left to the human to analyse information presented & this was rapidly lost or misunderstood by many people.
    Seems like it was a good idea I decided not to look into this then. My programming skills aren't that good yet, and I just wanted to inquire and explore avenues that were more tangible for my skills. For now I think I exhausted my options. It's not to say that I think external INP manipulation isn't a possibility: it could very well be what happened. I have an idea of how it could be done but ultimately lack the knowledge to research if such technology existed back in 2004. Like it's been said, though, we can't exactly prove such with a video alone. The bottom line is simply too many questions were raised from BM's actions to reasonably answer. Like I told Tipster, the fact that some of these questions need to be raised in the first place is more important than the answers themselves.
    Last edited by Streetwize; 10-17-2020 at 11:32 PM.
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