Post Verdict Dispute Discussion:Dispute: Angela Stefanski - NES / FAMICOM / DISK - The Legend of Zelda - NTSC - Fastest Completion [1st Quest] - Player: Rodrigo Lopes - Score: 31:37.0

  1. 12-04-2019, 01:34 AM
    Put TG between a rock & a hard place and it will side with itself. An understandable outcome but the removal of so many proven & legitimate scores just helps to confirm the phrase "World Record" around here is meaningless (not that I believe in such a phrase anyway :P ).
  2. 12-04-2019, 01:48 AM
    Quote Originally Posted by Barthax View Post
    Put TG between a rock & a hard place and it will side with itself. An understandable outcome but the removal of so many proven & legitimate scores just helps to confirm the phrase "World Record" around here is meaningless (not that I believe in such a phrase anyway :P ).
    They had to be removed, otherwise we would still have hundreds of Todd's scores and some of Billy's on the scoreboard. Is that what you want? TG could never get rid of the dainted public image that way.
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  3. 12-04-2019, 02:12 AM
    Quote Originally Posted by Joonas View Post
    They had to be removed, otherwise we would still have hundreds of Todd's scores and some of Billy's on the scoreboard. Is that what you want? TG could never get rid of the dainted public image that way.
    Rodrigo had TGSAP scores: proven, legitimate and available for scrutiny.

    [Edit:] Thought of an alternative way to illustrate my thoughts on the matter. TG is an historic scoreboard in pursuit of "world records". TGSAP era is about being able to objectively confirm performances so there is as little doubt as possible and retention of evidence to ensure future scrutiny where doubt resides. The TGSAP submissions (accepted or rejected) can be repeatedly scrutinised if they were submitted correctly to TG - TG is actively promoting the removal of TGSAP scores with missing evidence. So the TGSAP submissions of anyone banned remain objective. The removal from the scoreboard of any accepted score from the TGSAP era under these circumstances is subjectively indicating there may be something wrong with TGSAP itself because these score were "let through". So to advertise on the scoreboard any lesser score as being 1st place while retaining objective proof that a better score exists (archives) is a mockery of the TGSAP processes and pursuit of "world records".
    Last edited by Barthax; 12-04-2019 at 02:44 AM.
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  4. 12-04-2019, 02:53 AM
    There is a problem for me. Not so much in that I strongly believed that Rodrigo made a false claim on his Zelda 1 time. If you remember, I made a wall post that may well have asked the initial question toward this run. With the community stepping in and taking action to prove the doubts that I have had ever since I had become part of Twin Galaxies. The issue is more along the lines of legitimate, verified scores also being removed.

    I can see a case for older scores being removed, as previous versions of Twin Galaxies had far more relaxed methods of verification. I feel that the current scores, verified by this present community, should not be removed. I see merit in both sides of this discussion, but at this point I feel the removal of proven legitimate scores on other games and other categories goes against the core of what Twin Galaxies should be.
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  5. 12-04-2019, 05:47 AM
    Given this example combined with past actions, I think that Twin Galaxies has declared that it's a "zero tolerance" outfit when it comes to players who misrepresent their submissions. This discussion about the appropriateness of whether all scores should be removed, or just some is one I also heard with past high profile decisions, and it's understandable that there isn't going to be a consensus on this issue. I personally don't see the removals as wounding the accurateness of this scoreboard since having one's score posted is more than simply achieving it - to me there's an expectation that participation on the site entails a level of fair play and transparency in our actions. In that sense, it doesn't surprise me that failing to uphold those expectations jeopardizes all achievements and recognition afforded to a player.
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  6. 12-04-2019, 05:50 AM
    Quote Originally Posted by The Evener View Post
    Given this example combined with past actions, I think that Twin Galaxies has declared that it's a "zero tolerance" outfit when it comes to players who misrepresent their submissions. This discussion about the appropriateness of whether all scores should be removed, or just some is one I also heard with past high profile decisions, and it's understandable that there isn't going to be a consensus on this issue. I personally don't see the removals as wounding the accurateness of this scoreboard since having one's score posted is more than simply achieving it - to me there's an expectation that participation on the site entails a level of fair play and transparency in our actions. In that sense, it doesn't surprise me that failing to uphold those expectations jeopardizes all achievements and recognition afforded to a player.
    Other participants that have been banned due to behaviour have not had scores removed. This is a unique case thus far.

    As for accuracy, the scoreboard is simply no longer accurate.
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  7. 12-04-2019, 06:34 AM
    Quote Originally Posted by Barthax View Post
    Rodrigo had TGSAP scores: proven, legitimate and available for scrutiny.

    [Edit:] Thought of an alternative way to illustrate my thoughts on the matter. TG is an historic scoreboard in pursuit of "world records". TGSAP era is about being able to objectively confirm performances so there is as little doubt as possible and retention of evidence to ensure future scrutiny where doubt resides. The TGSAP submissions (accepted or rejected) can be repeatedly scrutinised if they were submitted correctly to TG - TG is actively promoting the removal of TGSAP scores with missing evidence. So the TGSAP submissions of anyone banned remain objective. The removal from the scoreboard of any accepted score from the TGSAP era under these circumstances is subjectively indicating there may be something wrong with TGSAP itself because these score were "let through". So to advertise on the scoreboard any lesser score as being 1st place while retaining objective proof that a better score exists (archives) is a mockery of the TGSAP processes and pursuit of "world records".
    I think i'm largely in agreement both on the facts (well on the facts 100% agree) and the opinion( mostly) but you do feel much more strongly about it than i especially in regard to calling it a "mockery". i know the definition/semantics of "world record" are often debated, and all it ever means for any site is the best that site can verify, i know you've agreed with this view in the past so the harsh criticism i find extra strange coming from you so perhaps i'm missing something, but regardless i'll give my opinion response to literal surface word choice.

    I dont think lacking records ruins accuracy i think having fakes ruins accuracy. TG no longer imports scores. now sure, if a site has corrupt mods/ref that remove any score that beats them that affects accuracy but i think motive factors in here. If jace kept the tgsap of rodrigo (something you and i both favor) that speaks to accuracy for reasons you stated. However, i dont have a problem with people admiting they can make mistakes, in fact its a good thing. every person, every organization can make mistakes, so admitting to the possibility in my opinion makes the organization more reliale not less. Therefor the idea of "rodrigo might have slipped something through we missed" i can see as an admirable admission we dont catch everything -- no shame in that.

    To me motive is key. keeping his scores because they were thoroughly vetted is an admirable motive and helps tg's reputation, has merit and makes the site credible. Removing his scores cause his behavior raises questions, and tg is willing to admit its fallible and may have missed something is also admirable motive and helps tg's reputation.

    that said, reputation, reliablility, mockery, these things are all opinion and everyone has their right to it. there's also a human element, i for example have gained some fondness for todd as a human being, i would imagine anyone who knows rodrigo as a human and not just a name with scores would likewise have understandable added feelings in the mix
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  8. 12-04-2019, 07:01 AM
    actualy an ammendment to my above post, if i'm to be completely literal since tg has made clear its not calling rodrigo a cheater and is instead going with behavior, then i have to agree. removing tgsap scores for bad behavior dont make sense. i was respecting the angle that rodrigo cheated so we may have missed something, unless tg is willing to state that though, then yes, taking everything on face value is problematic. I think most people are taking the view rodrigo cheated and calling it behavioral is just a lawsuit avoiding tactic, and as such, removing scores for cheating makes sense. but hey, call me pedantic, but as long as the officially stated reason for removal is behavioral then i have to agree a bit more stronlgy than before that only pre-tgsap should've gone.

    even still, i know how pedantic i get, and so i can still live with this decision from a realistic/common sense angle (not an angle i like, but one i'll accept).
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  9. 12-04-2019, 07:32 AM
    I see both sides of the issue. The reasons to remove Rodrigo's scores from the leaderboards - having the "top player" be one that's banned for cheating really does not inspire confidence in the validity of the TG leaderboards from an outside perspective, along with it being serious consequences for anyone caught. And the reasons to keep them, as they were vetted, and the video is still present, meaning the legitimacy can be determined regardless of the individual.

    So I'd like to toss out an alternative idea for discussion purposes, see if maybe it's on a path that people might find worth discussing.

    Keep all of Roberto's TGSAP scores on the leaderboards. Force-set his record count, ESI, and credibility to zero, so that his profile reflects those numbers, and he does not appear on any of the leaderboards.

    Then, add an asterisk or the equivalent to his name wherever it appears on a scoreboard, like you'll see Pete Rose with that asterisk in the record books. That asterisk offers a little pop-up indicating that while he's been banned for cheating, that score remains because it was validated by the community and can still be further examined, along with a link to the full details of the dispute and ruling.

    The scores remain, but every achievement has that note to contextualize it.
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  10. 12-04-2019, 07:39 AM
    Quote Originally Posted by Snowflake View Post
    I think i'm largely in agreement both on the facts (well on the facts 100% agree) and the opinion( mostly) but you do feel much more strongly about it than i especially in regard to calling it a "mockery". i know the definition/semantics of "world record" are often debated, and all it ever means for any site is the best that site can verify, i know you've agreed with this view in the past so the harsh criticism i find extra strange coming from you so perhaps i'm missing something, but regardless i'll give my opinion response to literal surface word choice.
    TGSAP is intended to have integrity. TG scoreboard is intended to list the best. The actions in this case are definitely not the latter and as a result lessens the former. Hence, my opinion of mockery. :P

    I've stated this before on multiple forums. Any attempting to establish a "world record" needs to measure every attempt on every unit ever at any world location under any circumstances. Only when every attempt has been measured will a "world record" be established. Any other circumstance leaves doubt. TG activily acknowledges this with "TG World Record" in some places and the expressed opinion that a TGWR is the best measured by this site. Well, that's definitely not the case any more: Rodrigo's scores have been measured by this site and are not acknowledged so even a "TG World Record" is meaningless if Rodrigo has submitted the (previously) 1st place score.

    Quote Originally Posted by Snowflake View Post
    I dont think lacking records ruins accuracy i think having fakes ruins accuracy. TG no longer imports scores. now sure, if a site has corrupt mods/ref that remove any score that beats them that affects accuracy but i think motive factors in here. If jace kept the tgsap of rodrigo (something you and i both favor) that speaks to accuracy for reasons you stated. However, i dont have a problem with people admiting they can make mistakes, in fact its a good thing. every person, every organization can make mistakes, so admitting to the possibility in my opinion makes the organization more reliale not less. Therefor the idea of "rodrigo might have slipped something through we missed" i can see as an admirable admission we dont catch everything -- no shame in that.
    I make too many mistakes/typos/etc to suggest otherwise. :D Bloody humans: I don't understand 'em but I'll give them leniancy as I'd expect it in return as I'm just as fallible. ;)

    Quote Originally Posted by Snowflake View Post
    To me motive is key. keeping his scores because they were thoroughly vetted is an admirable motive and helps tg's reputation, has merit and makes the site credible. Removing his scores cause his behavior raises questions, and tg is willing to admit its fallible and may have missed something is also admirable motive and helps tg's reputation.
    Like computers, TG is run by humans, ergo fallibility is ever-present. I work in support and gets lots of people saying "I didn't do ..." when I'm sat next to them watching them do exactly that. It's not that they are bare-face lying to me, it's just they don't equate what they do with the net result. I suspect this will be the case if Rodrigo ever releases the footage: either Rodrigo didn't equate particular actions to something in the rules or the ref didn't equate particular visuals to the rules. I sincerely hope Rodrigo's run matches the rules exactly but again, I've seen too many close calls in TGSAP fall either side of the fence. TGSAP is run by humans: cycle around the paragraph ad infinitum.
    I'd rather be last on every game than throw my time away chasing only one score.
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