Post Verdict Dispute Discussion:Dispute: Angela Stefanski - NES / FAMICOM / DISK - The Legend of Zelda - NTSC - Fastest Completion [1st Quest] - Player: Rodrigo Lopes - Score: 31:37.0

  1. 12-04-2019, 08:29 AM
    Quote Originally Posted by Barthax View Post
    I've stated this before on multiple forums. Any attempting to establish a "world record" needs to measure every attempt on every unit ever at any world location under any circumstances. Only when every attempt has been measured will a "world record" be established. Any other circumstance leaves doubt. TG activily acknowledges this with "TG World Record" in some places and the expressed opinion that a TGWR is the best measured by this site. Well, that's definitely not the case any more: Rodrigo's scores have been measured by this site and are not acknowledged so even a "TG World Record" is meaningless if Rodrigo has submitted the (previously) 1st place score.
    Yes, on this point I can see a divergence of opinion. I just never subscribed to the totalizing gaze of a TG "world record" really being a "World Record" above and beyond any other achievement ever played on a specific game. When I want to look at a high score on a track, I'll scour the Internet to track down the highest claimed score so I can have a sense of whether I want to push to surpass all reported scores, or simply compete to claim first place based on what's on the leaderboard (maybe the reported score seems bogus, for example). We only have to look at some examples of speedruns to know that faster times are tracked elsewhere, so whether that diminishes the value of slower/lower score TG "world record" for me is largely the same question when someone chooses to complete on a track with a score/time removed as in the case of Lopes. For me, a TG world record can and only will be the result of competition for people who choose to compete here - or who are permitted to compete.
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  2. 12-04-2019, 08:52 AM
    I noticed some folks coming from the woodworks after Rodrigo's ban. Maybe if we shine the light on them they could go back into hiding?

    Weird coming from me I know but I would prefer we start working towards a more positive view now that this shitstorm has blown over.
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  3. 12-04-2019, 09:11 AM
    Quote Originally Posted by Desidious View Post
    I noticed some folks coming from the woodworks after Rodrigo's ban. Maybe if we shine the light on them they could go back into hiding?

    Weird coming from me I know but I would prefer we start working towards a more positive view now that this shitstorm has blown over.
    I feel like I'm missing something, I'm sure we'll get to a more positive place, but considering that TG handed down its decision less than 12 hours ago, I suspect there'll be some more discussion to process/debate in this post-dispute thread for the next while. But yes, looking forward to other positive pursuits as well.
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  4. 12-04-2019, 09:27 AM
    TG owner/management will NEVER label someone "a cheater" (verbally, or in writing) They never had, they never will. I do understand exactly why they wont, and thats OK.

    Those that know this game, those that seen the past video "clips", and those that KNOW the exact past history of the gamer, and those that know the mentality of how that gamer HANDLED the dispute, says it all.

    HE...HAD...SOMETHING...TO...HIDE !

    I am happy with the final verdict. Justice was served. Integrity above all. (And I dont care how dedication you were here, how long you been here, or how nice you are... you CHEAT, you suffer the consequences.

    Splice on...
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  5. 12-04-2019, 09:28 AM
    i think by far rodrigo was the last dispute of anywhere near this impact that we'll ever see again. They other high profile controversies are more about sleazy tactics, or protecting cheaters as opposed to cheating itself and therefore not bannable. Fake scores will come up, new members will cheat, but i dont think any of it will be at the level as these. TG has decades long history and a few short years had to deal with cleaning up decades of mess all at once. I think the majority is finally behind us.
    Last edited by Snowflake; 12-04-2019 at 09:31 AM.
  6. 12-04-2019, 10:03 AM
    Quote Originally Posted by Barthax View Post
    The removal from the scoreboard of any accepted score from the TGSAP era under these circumstances is subjectively indicating there may be something wrong with TGSAP itself because these score were "let through". So to advertise on the scoreboard any lesser score as being 1st place while retaining objective proof that a better score exists (archives) is a mockery of the TGSAP processes and pursuit of "world records".
    I don't mean to misrepresent myself. I'm an outsider to this site, and I'm not a competitor for the leaderboard. But in my capacity as an observer and a fan of fair competition, I'd like to respond to this point. You pointed out elsewhere that it's impossible to track every actual high score ever legitimately achieved on every machine, and you are correct about that, but I think that is a point worth not brushing aside. The scoreboard will never be complete. There will always be scores/times which are generally believed to be legitimate but which cannot be officially recognized, for a number of reasons. This same discussion was had with regard to removing Billy Mitchell's past scores, with some believing that it was anti-historical to do so. It was pointed out (I believe by Evener) that banning a player from future submissions could also be considered anti-historical, in that it would result in not officially recognizing achievements that are generally considered to be legitimate (as we've seen with Billy's few million point games of the last couple years). But obviously TG needs to be able to ban players who have shown themselves to be dishonest.

    TGSAP is fallible. If you don't believe me, go back and look at the first page of this cheated TGSAP submission from 2015:

    https://www.twingalaxies.com/showthr...Michael-Girard

    I don't mean to single anyone out from that page, both because nobody's perfect, and because some forgeries are impossible to spot without the right knowledge. What if someone with Zallard's expertise hadn't come along and outed the cheat? Or what if the cheater had accounted for these tells? Similarly, where would we be now if Rodrigo knew about these level 9 spawn patterns and used a different Up+A point to splice his game? Does TGSAP, even with its emphasis on permanent evidence, does it truly account for all the ways to cheat?

    The removal of these scores/times under TGSAP isn't mocking the process. It's acknowledging that the process is indeed not perfect, and that no process ever will be. TGSAP scores aren't necessarily valid just because a video is preserved. All of this ultimately comes down to trust. The reason the TGSAP scores of Rodrigo Lopes should no longer be officially recognized is because they can no longer be trusted simply by virtue of the fact that they come from him.

    I understand you're disappointed that you won't be seeing Rodrigo on the site anymore. I hope you understand your disappointment should be directed at Rodrigo, for either outright cheating, or if somehow someway he didn't cheat, for putting everyone on this wild chase which he could have prevented months ago (although, in all reality, it's basically certain that he cheated). As for your disappointment that the scoreboard won't recognize a set of records you believe are legitimate, I guess what I'm saying is, get used to it. Rodrigo won't be the last player to have their scores wiped, and we have not yet seen the last time a player tries (or even succeeds) at pulling a fast one on TGSAP.
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  7. 12-04-2019, 10:14 AM
    I hope you understand your disappointment should be directed at Rodrigo, for either outright cheating, or if somehow someway he didn't cheat, for putting everyone on this wild chase which he could have prevented months ago
    This. This. This.

    Emotion clouds judgement, I get it. If anything, the integrity of the scoreboard just went up quite a bit so I don't understand Barthax's insult towards it or us or whatever he is going on about. Yeah it would suck it I lost one of my friends here but if they cheat or are shady in their dealings then I really wouldn't want that here.

    Let's move on and enjoy the games we play and records we submit and quit crying over what has already been done. Don't like the recent judgement? There are plenty of other sites to log your records honestly. Now let's just focus on raising the positive environment to the next level.
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  8. 12-04-2019, 10:16 AM
    Quote Originally Posted by ersatz_cats View Post
    I don't mean to misrepresent myself. I'm an outsider to this site, and I'm not a competitor for the leaderboard. But in my capacity as an observer and a fan of fair competition, I'd like to respond to this point. You pointed out elsewhere that it's impossible to track every actual high score ever legitimately achieved on every machine, and you are correct about that, but I think that is a point worth not brushing aside. The scoreboard will never be complete. There will always be scores/times which are generally believed to be legitimate but which cannot be officially recognized, for a number of reasons. This same discussion was had with regard to removing Billy Mitchell's past scores, with some believing that it was anti-historical to do so. It was pointed out (I believe by Evener) that banning a player from future submissions could also be considered anti-historical, in that it would result in not officially recognizing achievements that are generally considered to be legitimate (as we've seen with Billy's few million point games of the last couple years). But obviously TG needs to be able to ban players who have shown themselves to be dishonest.

    TGSAP is fallible. If you don't believe me, go back and look at the first page of this cheated TGSAP submission from 2015:

    https://www.twingalaxies.com/showthr...Michael-Girard

    I don't mean to single anyone out from that page, both because nobody's perfect, and because some forgeries are impossible to spot without the right knowledge. What if someone with Zallard's expertise hadn't come along and outed the cheat? Or what if the cheater had accounted for these tells? Similarly, where would we be now if Rodrigo knew about these level 9 spawn patterns and used a different Up+A point to splice his game? Does TGSAP, even with its emphasis on permanent evidence, does it truly account for all the ways to cheat?

    The removal of these scores/times under TGSAP isn't mocking the process. It's acknowledging that the process is indeed not perfect, and that no process ever will be. TGSAP scores aren't necessarily valid just because a video is preserved. All of this ultimately comes down to trust. The reason the TGSAP scores of Rodrigo Lopes should no longer be officially recognized is because they can no longer be trusted simply by virtue of the fact that they come from him.
    Great points and opinion well expressed. :)

    Quote Originally Posted by ersatz_cats View Post
    I understand you're disappointed that you won't be seeing Rodrigo on the site anymore. I hope you understand your disappointment should be directed at Rodrigo, for either outright cheating, or if somehow someway he didn't cheat, for putting everyone on this wild chase which he could have prevented months ago (although, in all reality, it's basically certain that he cheated). As for your disappointment that the scoreboard won't recognize a set of records you believe are legitimate, I guess what I'm saying is, get used to it. Rodrigo won't be the last player to have their scores wiped, and we have not yet seen the last time a player tries (or even succeeds) at pulling a fast one on TGSAP.
    I've rolled with the punches of this site for nearly two decades, the Internet in general for more than three and life for nearly five. I have come to understand requirements of the day (site, web, life) and move forward. I'd have quit the site permanently (have temporarily on multiple occasions) if I were not able to adapt. Of the many experiences, not least, I've come to the realisation that nobody on these forums understands me and that the Internet is full of disparate, but wonderfully, incorrect perceptions of wonderful human inhabitants (of which yours and mine are one each). Thanks for the response. ;)
    I'd rather be last on every game than throw my time away chasing only one score.
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  9. 12-04-2019, 10:40 AM
    Cheated or not, I'm still interested in seeing his Zelda runs, that's all I ever wanted from Rodrigo. Hopefully he will actually upload the full runs, as he claimed.
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  10. 12-04-2019, 10:47 AM
    I was hoping we would get a video. Oh well. Should have just manned up. I would have been cool with him replicating the score but none such thing was offered by him. if you are not going to defend your score then whats the point? It sucks but thats how it goes.
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