Post Verdict Dispute Discussion:Dispute: Angela Stefanski - NES / FAMICOM / DISK - The Legend of Zelda - NTSC - Fastest Completion [1st Quest] - Player: Rodrigo Lopes - Score: 31:37.0

  1. 12-04-2019, 12:20 PM
    Just my opinion but I think calling video game scores world records is kinda dumb and I'd rather have a scoreboard that might be missing a few top scores than one that has a convicted cheater on the leader board. It seems TG has tried to go this way but I also think if they just got rid of the words "world records" then maybe some people wouldn't be so uptight and could just enjoy some friendly competition playing some vidya games <devil horns>
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  2. 12-04-2019, 01:31 PM
    All that I can say in this matter is the following:

    Rodrigo stated specifically that he had video evidence, but all he provided was just a couple of snippets. He did not provide any solid evidence of any kind whatsoever. If he were truly legit, in my opinion, I believe that he would have provided what we needed. This makes me suspect that his so-called 'evidence' may not truly exist.

    There's also the issue that he acted in a very immature and unprofessional manner. Instead of attempting to offer an explanation of some kind or offering something constructive to the dispute that might have helped his case, all he did was rant and rave and call other people names. This is definitely not something a person who had achieved the record legitimately would have done if you ask me.

    Lastly, there's the issue of him being a former Twin Galaxies referee. This type of conduct is very unprofessional for someone with a position like that. Even if he was no longer a referee, that type of conduct does not seem typical of someone of a position like that, current or former.

    Therefore, in closing, all I can say is that Rodrigo had plenty of opportunities to prove that he had achieved the score legitimately, but all he did was whine and make excuses about the whole thing, which only made things worse for him than they could have been. I feel, had he been a bit more mature about this, he might have simply lost the record he claimed to have achieved. But he threw a temper tantrum and called people names, and as a result he's no longer part of Twin Galaxies.

    That's all there is to it.
    Lauren Tyler
    Eternal Champion of Ragol
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  3. 12-04-2019, 01:41 PM
    A lot of great thoughts and opinions have been spoken here, and it is important that everyone have the time, space and opportunity to express themselves on this overall matter.

    Nothing is perfect and we are all collectively doing the best we can with the most positive intentions.

    I think it is important to point out that there may be some confusion between the concept of "accuracy" of the scoreboard and the concept of "comprehensiveness."

    For Twin Galaxies, accuracy is more important that comprehensiveness. Certainly TG wants to be as comprehensive as possible, but that will always have it's limits. Therefore, accuracy is always the focus.

    A Twin Galaxies World Record is exactly that - a World Record that Twin Galaxies recognizes. It's that simple.
    It is the highest performance achieved under a set of rules and conditions that Twin Galaxies officially authenticates and recognizes. Nothing more, nothing less.

    Key elements to understand are the "rules and conditions." This is what differentiates holding a Twin Galaxies achievement from others. This is what makes holding a TG record more elevated and potentially prestigious.

    The "rules and conditions" have historically aspired to be more expansive that just game play rules. Things like positive conduct, decorum, the spirit of community and fair play, are what Twin Galaxies historically and currently values, wants to promote, and invest in.

    You can see some of this expression in a few of the old Twin Galaxies trading cards that honored gamers for things that were not necessarily score related, but instead placed value on some game community aspects that it viewed as worth noting.

    All this is to say that TG is not trying to be a giant comprehensive compendium of all "World Records" wherever they happen regardless of certain conditional factors. To pursue that would reduce TG to just statistical number gatherer with greatly reduced meaning behind the achievements.

    The TG goal is to recognize achievement, yes, but it is also to have people understand what it means for TG to recognize something as compared to something else recognizing it. That meaning, or differential, is the value proposition for the people who come to TG to be recognized. This is where the "rules and conditions" become a meaningful part of the equation.

    Otherwise, why be recognized by TG at all? Someone can just do a record, and upload it to youtube and promote themselves! They should feel free to do that always. Certainly @Siliconian can and maybe he will! Good for those that decide to do that. However, if they want TG recognition, that comes with meeting certain rules and conditions - and these of course can/must evolve always toward best practices.

    That's what a "TG World Record" is. It is one of the toughest, most scrutinized way for a performance to not only evaluated, but also maintained throughout history as valid. If you have a TG World Record, you should be proud of it. It matters. There is a lot of history and passion, and scrutiny behind your achievement!

    Lastly, in a previous post @Snowflake indicated that Rodrigo's scores were removed on the basis of behavior alone. This is not accurate. The ruling specifically states that it is a combination of all elements that dictated the result, not just one factor.
  4. 12-04-2019, 03:35 PM
    Blah blah blah!!! When one of your scores is being disputed, and you claim to have the evidence but refuse to show it, it makes you look guilty! So what if he had tgsap scores? If you're a cheater or act in away that makes you look like a cheater, you don't deserve recognition for any world records! He got the same punishment that todd and billy got, and it's the same punishment that any one of us would've gotten if we did shady s**t like that. The punishment needs to be this severe in order to discourage cheating in the future. (Although with the TGSAP system, it's harder to cheat than it has ever been before.)
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  5. 12-04-2019, 04:22 PM
    Posting to follow. I have a few questions about the dispute system coming. I do have 2 questions to ask @Jace Hall and everyone else.

    1. What exactly is the criteria for a ban and all score removal? I thought there had to be irrefutable evidence to remove a score? Dragster and DK disputes and every other dispute for that matter backs that up. So when did "highly improbable" become the next thing in score removal?

    2. So if Rodrigo does upload that Zelda run and it's legit, he is back and so are his scores? All the "haters" are gone? I know many don't agree with this point but Rodrigo DID NOT have to upload his score. His score was supposed to be protected by TG unless irrefutable evidence was found. Jace made that very clear in the Dragster dispute many times about "irrefutable evidence" needed to found. Otherwise it's just conjecture. I don't recall any SRC members saying it was "impossible" to achieve his time. Yet here we are.

    I agree with @Barthax TGSAP scores should have remained because of one simple reason...we aren't sure if Rodrigo actually "cheated". Highly improbable is now cheated? I thought cheaters go scores removed, not highly improbable. If that's the case, then the guy who had all those Street Fighter disputes should be banned as well. He clearly broke the rules many times even though the rules say 1cc or no continues are to be used. I find it "highly improbable" he made that mistake in all of those submissions without knowing he was doing it. I bet I don't win that argument. Also backing that point, TGSAP has video to prove scores. So yeah, it really is kind a slap in the TGSAP face if you are just going to completely omit those scores with the evidence there...and the fact it isn't 100% clear Rodrigo cheated, just highly probable he did.

    Todd's Dragster score was impossible - AKA he cheated. Billy's DK score was done on MAME and he lied about it - AKA he cheated. Rodrigo's run is "highly improbable" and his conduct wasn't what people expected - AKA he cheated? I don't know, I see an inconsistency in how disputes are handled and what a ban and removal of scores actually means. I'm going to break down the dispute system and find out what scores are input errors, ones where rules where broken, and just compare them to see how many people actually had all scores stripped for doing it.

    Have fun ripping me apart people. You are clearly missing my point if you do. I agree that a ban should be in effect until he uploads the video at least, and all his old TG scores should be removed unless his video is legit. As for TGSAP, NO TGSAP SCORE SHOULD EVER BE REMOVED WITH EVIDENCE THERE TO DISPUTE. That is the entire point of it.
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  6. 12-04-2019, 04:31 PM
    Before everyone freaks out, No I don't think the score is legit, and yes I was also expecting a video upload. I agree with everything you all have said, that still doesn't mean I can't see things from a reasonable point of view. That's the difference. If it's not impossible, it's theoretically possible. I do take at it's worth.

    Yes, it's so damn suspicious he didn't upload the video that it shows guilt. However, he did say he would upload it if his scores were removed. I hope he follows through on that.
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  7. 12-04-2019, 04:52 PM
    Quote Originally Posted by thegamer1185 View Post
    Posting to follow. I have a few questions about the dispute system coming. I do have 2 questions to ask @Jace Hall and everyone else.
    Remember, it's not *just* about a questionable score. It's also that he claimed over and over to have the evidence needed to evaluate the score, to the point of taunting everyone about having it but not sharing. He attacked anyone that questioned the score as his "haters". And all that as a former referee for Twin Galaxies. And even when Jace pretty much made clear that without evidence, Rodrigo would be banned, he STILL refused to share evidence, but instead made a threat that he'd only show afterwards that the ruling was wrong.

    We lacked the evidence to *prove* if he cheated or not, and he knew it. Jace had to set a precedent for this kind of behavior for the future. And I agree with his choice.
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  8. 12-04-2019, 05:27 PM
    Quote Originally Posted by thegamer1185 View Post
    Posting to follow. I have a few questions about the dispute system coming. I do have 2 questions to ask @Jace Hall and everyone else.

    1. What exactly is the criteria for a ban and all score removal? I thought there had to be irrefutable evidence to remove a score? Dragster and DK disputes and every other dispute for that matter backs that up. So when did "highly improbable" become the next thing in score removal?
    The general criteria for a ban and score removal are already well documented - however as stated previously, all disputes are handled and decided upon uniquely.

    The rationale for this specific score removal is clearly stated in the decision post. If there are specific questions about that dispute, please feel free to ask.

    Quote Originally Posted by thegamer1185 View Post
    2. So if Rodrigo does upload that Zelda run and it's legit, he is back and so are his scores? All the "haters" are gone? I know many don't agree with this point but Rodrigo DID NOT have to upload his score. His score was supposed to be protected by TG unless irrefutable evidence was found. Jace made that very clear in the Dragster dispute many times about "irrefutable evidence" needed to found. Otherwise it's just conjecture. I don't recall any SRC members saying it was "impossible" to achieve his time. Yet here we are.
    You are correct that Rodrigo did not have to upload his score. If someone uploads or not it has no bearing on whether a final decision is going to be made. The process will continue regardless of upload, one way or another.

    It was Rodrigo's decision to volunteer the fact that he had the performance available for upload. When he stated that, it changed the circumstance from "impossible to resolve due to non-existent data" to "impossible to resolve due to deliberate intent." That suddenly created a different consideration for Twin Galaxies to process.

    The amount of the dispute claim evidence that could be considered objective was substantial, and when combined with the fact that the original submitter voluntarily claimed to have the performance tape as an offer of proof of validity but then refused to provide it, created a unique situation that had to be met with unique consideration. Never mind the fact that this was a former Twin Galaxies Referee, and that had its own implications.

    Let me be clear. TG is not going to consciously allow itself to be used by competitors as a barrier to potentially hide information at the expense other participants. The goal of the dispute system is to get to the correct decision regarding a dispute claim on the basis of what was presented. It is a mistake to become overly concerned with pedantic definition at the expense of consciously thinking about and considering everything that has been presented.

    Over concern with pedantic definition and not having a more philosophical view is one of the major reasons why Twin Galaxies failed the speed run community so terribly in the past that now an enormous schism exists. Those kinds of mistakes are over. I assure you.


    Quote Originally Posted by thegamer1185 View Post
    I agree with @Barthax TGSAP scores should have remained because of one simple reason...we aren't sure if Rodrigo actually "cheated". Highly improbable is now cheated? I thought cheaters go scores removed, not highly improbable. If that's the case, then the guy who had all those Street Fighter disputes should be banned as well. He clearly broke the rules many times even though the rules say 1cc or no continues are to be used. I find it "highly improbable" he made that mistake in all of those submissions without knowing he was doing it. I bet I don't win that argument. Also backing that point, TGSAP has video to prove scores. So yeah, it really is kind a slap in the TGSAP face if you are just going to completely omit those scores with the evidence there...and the fact it isn't 100% clear Rodrigo cheated, just highly probable he did.
    I'm not sure if you read my previous post, but I would encourage you do so. I discuss this subject at length. I would also ask that you re-read the dispute decision to better understand why there was a score removal and ban.

    Quote Originally Posted by thegamer1185 View Post
    Todd's Dragster score was impossible - AKA he cheated. Billy's DK score was done on MAME and he lied about it - AKA he cheated. Rodrigo's run is "highly improbable" and his conduct wasn't what people expected - AKA he cheated? I don't know, I see an inconsistency in how disputes are handled and what a ban and removal of scores actually means. I'm going to break down the dispute system and find out what scores are input errors, ones where rules where broken, and just compare them to see how many people actually had all scores stripped for doing it.
    TG has not made any comment in regard to "cheating." Again please re-read the dispute decision. It seems that one of the things that you are looking for is some kind of universal thing that defines all disputes, when in fact it has been stated many times that each dispute case is handled uniquely. That, by definition, means that while you can find some consistent guideline elements across disputes, each dispute will have its own unique characteristics that other disputes may not have. This is by design.

    It is important to not lose sight of the purpose of the dispute system. It is only there to help improve scoreboard integrity and accuracy. It is there as part of an overall system to help build greater confidence both inside and outside the community that the scores as well as the people who participate here are considered valid and of distinction. It is unlikely that there is any "one size fits all" rule set solution when dealing with such a complex series of data subjects. At best TG tries to stay within guidelines that match the purpose and point of the system, while also maintain enough flexibility to meet the goal.

    Quote Originally Posted by thegamer1185 View Post
    Have fun ripping me apart people. You are clearly missing my point if you do. I agree that a ban should be in effect until he uploads the video at least, and all his old TG scores should be removed unless his video is legit. As for TGSAP, NO TGSAP SCORE SHOULD EVER BE REMOVED WITH EVIDENCE THERE TO DISPUTE. That is the entire point of it.
    Hopefully no one is interested in ripping anyone apart. You have your opinion and you are entitled to it.

    Please just remember this:

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  9. 12-04-2019, 05:59 PM
    Keep in mind this isn't the only one of rodrigo's old scores that was disputed. Does anyone think his taz score is legit? Or even possible?
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  10. 12-04-2019, 06:17 PM
    i've got two related follow up questions
    1. Will TG make any effort to find their copy of the tape?
    2. if tg finds the tape, either by accident, or intentionaly searching, will the time be taken to analyze or upload it?
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