Post Verdict Dispute Discussion:Dispute: Angela Stefanski - NES / FAMICOM / DISK - The Legend of Zelda - NTSC - Fastest Completion [1st Quest] - Player: Rodrigo Lopes - Score: 31:37.0

  1. 12-05-2019, 09:28 AM
    Quote Originally Posted by thegamer1185 View Post
    Why would I be offended? As I said I was dispassionate. And I believe I was the only one in the dispute stating it still doesn't prove he couldn't do it or at least asking questions as to why it's not possible.
    That's one of the fundamental issues that I mentioned when I started the dispute. There was NO WAY for us to be able to conclusively state that his run was not legitimate. The time was possible, and we saw someone beat it. Analysis could be done on the bit he was willing to share, and it brought up discrepancies that are inconsistent with any other good speed run, but were not conclusive. Unless there was something in that small bit of video, the only chance we had was him sharing the run.

    It's why there needed to be a bigger picture examined in this case. If the dispute *required* proof his run was illegitimate, then it sets a bad precedent for future disputes, by setting the bar to an effectively unattainable level. "It got by a referee in the past" should not be viewed as some absolute mark of quality, as things have made it very clear that plenty of bad scores have been accepted in that manner - and as we've seen over with Speedruns, some methods of cheating that were very effective at being treated as valid in the past have been discovered since due to new knowledge, and the mechanics behind The Legend of Zelda is an instance of that.

    I think this is good discussion, as long as the discussion progresses and we don't just have the same points and questions rehashed over and over.
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  2. 12-05-2019, 09:36 AM
    i know jace likes to reference the bald captain about no rules being absolute and without getting too philosophical with a wall of text how often i think of this in detail in many areas of life, i'll try to give my summary which i think/hope might explain the concerns

    yes, rules made by humans likely have errors. being absolute in those rules will lead to problems in corner cases the rules were never meant to cover. this is all true. HOWEVER, allowing flexibilty can be abused even worse, with the flexible judge constantly exerting bias and declaring everything a judgement cal. Just think how many exceptions old tg made for their favorites. This isnt just pessimists being theoretical we have plenty of examples where allowing leeway in the judgmeent calls led to far worse abuse than rigid laws would ever lead to

    basically, for worst case scenarios, absolute rules are bad but nearly as bad as the chaos with corrupt biased enforers. its the lesser of two evils
    however, in the best cases, with intelligent honorable judges, flexibility is ideal

    I hope i dont sound like a suck up, but i think jace is intelligent and honorable. he largely follows his own rules and making excpetions in the most extreme cases where it really is justified. the system works. however, as much as it works, yes i do the "what if" and worry if it leads us down a slippery slope.
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  3. 12-05-2019, 12:29 PM
    You're not a suck up. Kiss ass or a brown noser, but I wouldn't call you a suck up haha :p. I should point out that I think you guys take me way to seriously. If all the stuff I've posted was spoken, you would see that im as light hearted and easy going about all of this. I'd be laughing and poking fun with you. Just not a poet and I know it. Maybe I need to take a page from Mass Effect and that elephant looking species that speaks mono tone and type my emotions before each sentence so you know the tone of my thoughts haha.

    I don't have any grudges, or hate anyone. I respect all your thoughts and opinions, I just don't know how to put my thoughts down in writing so well and I definitely know it comes off as angry or attacking but believe me, it's not meant to be that way. If I had a problem with any of you, I would have no issues telling you.
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  4. 12-05-2019, 01:24 PM
    Quote Originally Posted by thegamer1185 View Post
    Jace, I am not ignoring what Rodrigo was doing. I know what he was doing.
    Ok. Do you agree that what he was doing had impact on the dispute claim participants and his actions constituted evidence in its own right? I'm not referring to the actual claimed tape itself, I am referring to Rodrigo's specific actions taken in relation to it.

    If you agree that his choice to participate in the manner in which he did have impact, what value assignment do you personally place on that impact and how do you conclude and justify that assignment's value relative to the other components?


    Quote Originally Posted by thegamer1185 View Post
    Again though, his submission was already verified and approved by a Twin Galaxies referee. The "answer" was already given that his submission was valid.
    This is true and it is on that basis that TG stands behind the scores in the database - however the creation and existence of the dispute system tacitly means that TG acknowledges that the previous Referee system is not infallible and that it is possible for it to have been circumvented in various specific cases.

    Quote Originally Posted by thegamer1185 View Post
    The fact Rodrigo has the "answer" in his hands has already been received by Twin Galaxies years ago.
    Twin Galaxies' reception of the tape years ago does not preclude the fact that a Referee review of that tape may have missed critical information. The fact is that Twin Galaxies does not have the tape in its possession now in such a manner that it can be reviewed again.

    If a Referee somehow missed something, the answer cannot always be "oh well it got through" when there is an enormous amount of objective evidence to indicate invalidity while simultaneously existing are known and reasonably accessible means available to explore the possibility. Rodrigo's self-admitted claim that he is in possession of the "answer" and his stated reasons along with actions taken for making that claim becomes an important element due to this.


    Quote Originally Posted by thegamer1185 View Post
    A score was just removed for being "highly improbable"
    This is 100% FALSE and demonstrates that perhaps you may not be reading the decision carefully enough if that is the impression and belief that you understand as to why the score was removed.

    I will explain it again in summary here: The score(s) were removed due to a combination of elements, not just a single element. You are trying to reference a single element as the cause. This is in error.

    Quote Originally Posted by thegamer1185 View Post
    and it appears to me that you/TG were kind of upset he wouldn't just solve the problem for you by submitting that tape.
    This is where you really may not understand and is likely the root of where you seem to get off track. This dispute is not a "problem" for me or TG. It is a normal and basic function of what TG does. It adjudicates and authenticates. What exactly would the "problem" be? Obviously, TG is not reliant on an answer in order to make a decision, it merely offers the courtesy of allowing an answer if one desires to provide it.

    You are correct in that Rodrigo doesn't have to answer. He, in fact, only answered things that he wanted to, which was up to him because he didn't have to answer anything at all in the first place.

    It's honestly not a problem at all. It is entirely dispassionate. The goal is to get to the best and most accurate decision possible.

    Quote Originally Posted by thegamer1185 View Post
    Was how he handled the evidence justifiable based on what you have said regarding how a dispute process works? YES. I know, the response to all of this is "I'm choosing to ignore this, or that, and each score is unique and handled on a case by case basis." It's wrong. It's just wrong. Score is possible and removed...it's just wrong.
    I want to make sure that I understand what you are saying:

    1.) Are you saying that Rodrigo's decision to announce that he has the performance tape but will not provide it, and then taunt people who are raising legitimate questions (and investing large amounts of time) with that possibility was "justifiable?"

    OR

    2.) Are you just saying that Rodrigo's decision to not supply the tape was within the stated general rules and therefore not an issue and "justifiable"?

    Or are you saying both things?

    If it is your firm belief that the sole basis and rationale of a score being maintained in the Twin Galaxies database should be just that "the score is possible" without any other considerations or conditions, then I can understand your viewpoint and disappointment.
  5. 12-05-2019, 03:52 PM
    Quote Originally Posted by Jace Hall View Post
    Ok. Do you agree that what he was doing had impact on the dispute claim participants and his actions constituted evidence in its own right? I'm not referring to the actual claimed tape itself, I am referring to Rodrigo's specific actions taken in relation to it.

    If you agree that his choice to participate in the manner in which he did have impact, what value assignment do you personally place on that impact and how do you conclude and justify that assignment's value relative to the other components?
    Every action has a reaction, so of course it had an impact. The dispute had already started, so people searching for evidence was always going to happen IMO. If you ask me, taunting people that you have the evidence but aren't going to show it is a pretty lousy way of deterring someone from proving your a fraud, haha. As for his actions, he was being a dick. Don't think I've every said contrary. I'll comment more about his actions below.


    Quote Originally Posted by Jace Hall View Post
    This is true and it is on that basis that TG stands behind the scores in the database - however the creation and existence of the dispute system tacitly means that TG acknowledges that the previous Referee system is not infallible and that it is possible for it to have been circumvented in various specific cases.
    Never questioned this. The dispute system is a FANTASTIC system. We are all aware of the Referee system and the flaws that went with it.

    Quote Originally Posted by Jace Hall View Post
    Twin Galaxies' reception of the tape years ago does not preclude the fact that a Referee review of that tape may have missed critical information. The fact is that Twin Galaxies does not have the tape in its possession now in such a manner that it can be reviewed again.

    If a Referee somehow missed something, the answer cannot always be "oh well it got through" when there is an enormous amount of objective evidence to indicate invalidity while simultaneously existing are known and reasonably accessible means available to explore the possibility. Rodrigo's self-admitted claim that he is in possession of the "answer" and his stated reasons along with actions taken for making that claim becomes an important element due to this.
    Completely understand this. Refs did in fact make mistakes entering scores, over looking things, or in some cases probably never even watched and just entered them into the database. Unfortunately, every score from pre-TGSAP is exactly "oh well it got through" because there is no evidence backing it up outside of it was entered. That is why the TGSAP system is AWESOME, and the Dispute system is here to hopefully find a counter to the "oh well it got through" issue.
    Yes, the evidence was very promising that Rodrigo didn't use an optimal tactic. Yes, him not releasing the entire tape definitely suggests guilt. None of that is definitive but hell yes, I've said it before and I'll say it again; I AM ON YOUR GUYS SIDE WHEN IT COMES TO THIS SCORE IS MORE THAN LIKELY NOT VALID.
    I'm sticking to my guns here, Rodrigo's actions should not be considered in the dispute itself because it has nothing to do with the validity of the score being entered. I will comment further about this below.



    Quote Originally Posted by Jace Hall View Post
    This is 100% FALSE and demonstrates that perhaps you may not be reading the decision carefully enough if that is the impression and belief that you understand as to why the score was removed.

    I will explain it again in summary here: The score(s) were removed due to a combination of elements, not just a single element. You are trying to reference a single element as the cause. This is in error.
    I understand it wasn't just the evidence in the dispute, I know his actions where considered and it was all tied together. However, I believe the elements warrant different punishments. Again, I'll explain below after I finish responding to your posts.


    Quote Originally Posted by Jace Hall View Post
    This is where you really may not understand and is likely the root of where you seem to get off track. This dispute is not a "problem" for me or TG. It is a normal and basic function of what TG does. It adjudicates and authenticates. What exactly would the "problem" be? Obviously, TG is not reliant on an answer in order to make a decision, it merely offers the courtesy of allowing an answer if one desires to provide it.

    You are correct in that Rodrigo doesn't have to answer. He, in fact, only answered things that he wanted to, which was up to him because he didn't have to answer anything at all in the first place.

    It's honestly not a problem at all. It is entirely dispassionate. The goal is to get to the best and most accurate decision possible.
    The "problem" was that you know a member has evidence but is unwilling to share it. And his actions are now considered a part of the element to the score removal other than just the score itself. More about that below.



    Quote Originally Posted by Jace Hall View Post
    I want to make sure that I understand what you are saying:

    1.) Are you saying that Rodrigo's decision to announce that he has the performance tape but will not provide it, and then taunt people who are raising legitimate questions (and investing large amounts of time) with that possibility was "justifiable?"

    OR

    2.) Are you just saying that Rodrigo's decision to not supply the tape was within the stated general rules and therefore not an issue and "justifiable"?

    Or are you saying both things?

    If it is your firm belief that the sole basis and rationale of a score being maintained in the Twin Galaxies database should be just that "the score is possible" without any other considerations or conditions, then I can understand your viewpoint and disappointment.
    1 and 2) Him announcing he has his performance and not wishing to share it is justifiable because he doesn't need to re-prove his score. It's up to the disputers to disprove his score. I would hope if there is one thing that remains constant, it's that it's not up to the accused to re-prove anything. The taunting was just a dick move and DESERVES a punishment but not related to the score.

    I do believe that ANY score in the database has to be proven impossible/cheated/glitched/incorrect settings/incorrect rules followed/scoreboard input error/incorrect game are all reasons to remove a score. Highly Improbable is not one of them and a persons actions during a dispute are not one of them.

    Now for my actions explanations. Todd Rogers handled his dispute better than anyone. He did answer questions, he tried to replicate in videos, he did interviews. Honestly, he came of as a classy guy if you ask me. Billy Mitchell had the same response that Rodrigo did. He was calling people names, he did interviews bashing TG and how we don't know what we are doing. Essentially saying we are jealous. I don't recall his character EVER being used in the reasoning for his score removal. As a matter of fact, I found this little sentence in the Billy Mitchell Summary decision statement:

    "Twin Galaxies is only looking at the dispute claim assertions about score performances and either validating or refuting those claims specifically - it is not evaluating people." https://www.twingalaxies.com/showthr...62-800/page326

    Now this is just my tiny opinion, but that is an official TG statement stating how a person IS NOT being evaluated, only there score. That's not just an ordinary statement, it's the FINAL VERDICT OF A DISPUTE post. Why is Rodrigo's character used as an element to remove his score? It can't be both ways? I agree all disputes are case by case, but this sentence alone proves my whole point. A person's character/actions/life/intelligence/ has nothing to do with the score and should not be considered. If I want to kick a dog while watching **** during my submissions.....obviously I'm being dramatically extreme.....my score is the ONLY thing that should matter. The fact I'm a sick pervert should NEVER be considered, and TGs statement above agrees with me. If you remove the person's character, you are left with 100% unbiased opinion towards the score. That is how it should be. Hell, maybe TGSAP should have all scores up for adjudication be anonymous until the score is accepted? Nobody knows who the score came from, that leaves only the score to adjudicate. No grudges, hatred, favoritism could be used. Completely unbiased adjudication. Now if that isn't as pure as it gets for the leaderboard I don't know what is. Of course the fact I always say my name in my submissions kind of counters that, haha :P That is clearly how it was UNTIL this dispute.

    If it was me, based on all of these things I've been saying, this is what I feel should have been done.

    1) All of his scores remain. This score was unlikely, but not impossible. Fact of the matter is (Heyo, Billy Mitchell shout out), there is not enough evidence to remove the score based on the evidence alone and it was actually proven possible because one of the SRC guys beat it in a day. There are (where?) other disputes of Rodrigo's scores. Maybe turning the focus over to one of them would be what is needed to have him officially banned and all scores removed?

    2) FINALLY going to address his actions. You are god damn right Rodrigo did not act in the best interest of TG, the community, and what TG is striving to achieve; An accurate leaderboard and a community driven to find the truth and best in gaming. He most definitely deserved a punishment for his ACTIONS and how he handled this dispute. He should have received a LIFE TIME BAN unless two conditions where met.

    1. He must fully upload the entirety of his Zelda 1 performance for viewing. This is what he used to taunt everyone with, and now it's the only thing that's going to exonerate his ban. Seems fair to me.

    2. A public apology.

    He made it a point very often of his time here and his scores. What a better a way to punish him than preventing him from ever using the system he (I think) clearly takes pride in having helped. This solution does a few things. It protects the TGSAP scores he submitted, it also still backs TG's stance on a score being protected unless proven "definitively otherwise". It definitely sends out a message not to **** with with the dispute system. Either keep your mouth shut, or provide the evidence, but we will not tolerate any mockery of finding the truth. I know many wanted the score removed, but as I mentioned there are other scores of his that are being disputed that could find that definitive full removal.



    Last edited by thegamer1185; 12-05-2019 at 04:54 PM.
  6. 12-05-2019, 04:18 PM
    Just out of curiosity, does TG have the ability to reveal who the verifying source was? In simple terms, who was it that verified the run?

    I bring this up because of some circumstantial possibilities that may have not been explored. It may be entirely a waste of time, but I believe that whomever it is that verifies a run had to put their name to it?
  7. 12-05-2019, 04:23 PM
    Quote Originally Posted by freeko View Post
    Just out of curiosity, does TG have the ability to reveal who the verifying source was? In simple terms, who was it that verified the run?

    I bring this up because of some circumstantial possibilities that may have not been explored. It may be entirely a waste of time, but I believe that whomever it is that verifies a run had to put their name to it?
    TG never documented who verified what scores. They have no records. There were certain refs designated to certain systems. So I don't believe this can be proved for any old TG submissions unless written in an old forum post.
  8. 12-05-2019, 04:52 PM
    Quote Originally Posted by thegamer1185 View Post
    TG never documented who verified what scores. They have no records. There were certain refs designated to certain systems. So I don't believe this can be proved for any old TG submissions unless written in an old forum post.
    "never" is a strong word. TG did document -- for a time -- for verified what. Its a shame that info, limited as it was, is now completely gone.
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  9. 12-05-2019, 05:09 PM
    Quote Originally Posted by thegamer1185 View Post
    TG never documented who verified what scores. They have no records. There were certain refs designated to certain systems. So I don't believe this can be proved for any old TG submissions unless written in an old forum post.
    It was systematically recorded in the previous version of the TG website. Unfortunately, I understand that this metadata was lost at some point when the site was migrated following Pete Bouvier's "sale" to Jourdan Adler. On rare occasions, the Wayback Machine snapshot of the old TG website recorded the verifying referee.

    In the case of Lopes' Zelda run, Lopes indicated in a forum post he was going to send it to RTM for verification. Reviewing the TG Archives for other submissions illustrates that this was Lopes' preferred referee route, although the official NES referee was Flewin as I understand at that time and Todd Rogers for Atari 2600. Zelda was also a "prestige" title that required verification from two or more referees. The most likely identity of the other referee to verify was an Metroid Team member - this isn't confirmed at this point, but based on public forums discussions where RTM and Metroid Team identified themselves as the verifying referees for Lopes' Pitfall WR, which was at the same time Lopes posted he was mailing his Zelda tape to RTM.
    Last edited by The Evener; 12-05-2019 at 05:13 PM.
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  10. 12-05-2019, 06:43 PM
    I see Rodrigo as one of the best multiple platforms players in the world, even though he played a lot of IOS PC's 3ds platforms at the end, I regard Rodrigo as Great Video game player.

    But on the well known games like Speedrun NES Legend of Zelda and SNES Legend of Zelda: Link to the Past, Gameboy Legend of Zelda: Links Awakening

    By presenting these videos, and proving everybody wrong, it would have put his name on world online game community map, everybody would know him but he chose the latter, instead of going for the gold victory and recognition.

    I Adjudicated many of his video game submissions.

    I had hopped like the majority of Twin Galaxy members that he would show the NES Legend of Zelda, I am really dis-pointed that he decided not to show it,hinting he would,if he did,he would won gained a higher recognition in the game world community as a hole.

    Aside from that the only video games I questioned was his records on the IOS Candy Crush Saga, which I JJT have played over 4000 levels & know it extremely well.

    Unless Rodrigo was thinking of the other of the future Video Game 10 Disputes Non TGSAP from REFEREE era here below:


    1. Dispute: Angela Stefanski - NES / FAMICOM / DISK - The Legend of Zelda - NTSC - Fastest Completion [1st Quest] - Player: Rodrigo Lopes - Score: 31:37.0
    https://www.twingalaxies.com/showthr...-Score-31-37-0






    2. Dispute: william rosa - Atari 2600 / VCS - Asterix - EMU - Game 1 (Points) - Player: Rodrigo Lopes - Score: 1,000,000
    https://www.twingalaxies.com/showthr...core-1-000-000




    3. Dispute: Matthew Felix - Game Boy / Game Boy Color - The Legend Of Zelda: Link's Awakening DX - Fastest Completion - Player: Rodrigo Lopes - Score: 01:36:11.0
    https://www.twingalaxies.com/showthr...ore-01-36-11-0




    4. Dispute: Matthew Felix - Atari 2600 / VCS - Alligator People - EMU - Game 1, Difficulty B - - Player: Rodrigo Lopes - Score: 1,111,903

    Dispute: Matthew Felix - Atari 2600 / VCS - Alligator People - EMU - Game 1, Difficulty B - - Player: Rodrigo Lopes - Score: 1,111,903

    - | Atari 2600 / VCS - Alligator People - EMU - Game...




    5. Dispute: Matthew Felix - SNES / SFC - The Legend Of Zelda: A Link to the Past - NTSC - Fastest Completion - Player: Rodrigo Lopes - Score: 01:36:43.0Dispute: Matthew Felix - SNES / SFC - The Legend Of Zelda: A Link to the Past - NTSC - Fastest Completion - Player: Rodrigo Lopes - Score: 01:36:43.0

    - | SNES / SFC - The Legend Of Zelda: A Link to the ...




    6. Dispute: Simon Leitch - iOS - Candy Crush Saga - World 1: Episode 1: Candy Town: Level 1 - Player: Rodrigo Lopes - Score: 19,760
    Dispute: Simon Leitch - iOS - Candy Crush Saga - World 1: Episode 1: Candy Town: Level 1 - Player: Rodrigo Lopes - Score: 19,760




    - | iOS - Candy Crush Saga - World 1: Episode 1: Candy Town: Level 1 | |- | Score T...




    7. Dispute: Marc Cohen - Atari 2600 / VCS - Taz - EMU - Game 1 (Points) - Player: Rodrigo Lopes - Score: 1,000,000








    Tags In Thread - Twin Galaxies

    Twin Galaxies video game world records - lifestyle and culture discussion forum and live broadcast network , go ...








    8. Dispute: Marc Cohen - Atari 2600 / VCS - Taz - EMU - Game 1 (Points) - Player: Rodrigo Lopes - Score: 1,000,000

    - | Atari 2600 / VCS - Taz - EMU - Game 1 (Points) ...






    9. Dispute: Angela Stefanski - NES / FAMICOM / DISK - The Legend of Zelda - NTSC - Fastest Completion [1st Quest] - Player: Rodrigo Lopes - Score: 31:37.0

    - | NES / FAMICOM / DISK - The Legend of Zelda - NTS...

    10 .Dispute: Simon Leitch - iOS - Candy Crush Saga - World 1: Episode 1: Candy Town: Level 6 - Player: Rodrigo Lopes - Score: 71,320
    https://www.twingalaxies.com/showthr...27#post1062727











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