Post Verdict Dispute Discussion:Dispute: Angela Stefanski - NES / FAMICOM / DISK - The Legend of Zelda - NTSC - Fastest Completion [1st Quest] - Player: Rodrigo Lopes - Score: 31:37.0

  1. 12-06-2019, 12:21 PM
    Quote Originally Posted by Barthax View Post
    ( @RaGe - I wonder if the tagging system is fixed for short names!)
    lol..It's not! It's worked on wall posts since last year, but in the forums, where it matters most (for submissions) , still doesn't work. It stopped working March 2018.
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  2. 12-06-2019, 12:31 PM
    Quote Originally Posted by Barthax View Post
    From my perspective that's all answered above - feel free to highlight what you consider isn't covered more explicitly. In essence:

    It was a condition of them becoming referees (I discovered after I become staff that one of the voiced concerns was the obvious "they could just enter any old score for each other"). I do remember one furore on the forums (surrounding a NES sub so could be the one we're both remembering) where it was still a requirement at the time but not advertised. If it was relaxed at a future date then it could easily be that they were so used to sending to RTM by then that they just continued to. I know I sent a large quantity via Terence O'Neill ( @RaGe - I wonder if the tagging system is fixed for short names!) and some of mine he forwarded to other ref(s) as part of other packages to distribute the load. Not an unheard of practice but as RTM points out above, everything was at the personal expense of the individual referee.

    One aspect (one of the many subtleties that gets lost over time) is the number of referees that had equipment to review. For example, my very first submission back around 2002 was on VHS tape and only RTM had a PAL-capable VHS recorder: I literally had no other option to send but to RTM. Later on I became staff to expand that and (unknown date) I know Kelly eventually had one. So, for those select few Americas PAL submissions, they could choose which referee based on mailing costs. I do not know for certain the VHS formats of Brazil but in the early days of Team Metroid - there might not have been many refs with the equipment to review (Brazil has had a mix of different TV standards in its history & PAL-M is in the mix: one of only two 60Hz PAL standards I'm aware of). Again, equipment was personal cost.


    RTM REPLY -I had to invest in purchasing a high-end multi-regional VCR because we were starting to get submissions in PAL, PAL-M, M-PAL, SECAM and others that I can't even remember. One tape came from Malaysia and I can't remember that format.

    When Team Metroid joined I crafted something for each member to sign, which they each did, and it contained a clause regarding the Team not being able to cross-verify each other's scores. That was 15 years ago and I no longer have E-MAILs or copies from that era.
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  3. 12-06-2019, 12:35 PM
    Quote Originally Posted by The Evener View Post
    I'm actually a bit surprised that Team Metroid members couldn't serve as refs for each other's own individual submissions (regardless of the criticisms that have been raised in the past and recently in reference to dispute reviews) for the simple reason that US-based refs were exchanging each others' submissions with one another for verification as part of the "TG Team" (for lack of a better word).


    RTM REPLY - Team Metroid was quite different than the usual referees...the precedent was the Morrow brothers (Mike and Wolff) who were also prohibitted from cross-verifying each other's scores (or scores from their own family as they had active members submitting).

    Another precedent was referee-at-large Shawn Cram...he was unable to verify on his own any scores as he was not a senior level referee, but he made a point not to cross-verify scores by Jason Cram, Anna Cram, Christian Cram or David Dmers (a relative).
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  4. 12-06-2019, 12:40 PM
    Quote Originally Posted by datagod View Post
    Transparency for thee, but not for me.

    This is why TGSAP dominates. The age of the corrupt referees who spent all day sucking their own **** for bragging rights is over. Good riddance to bad garbage. ***** *****
    ***** ***** ** bully *** ****** hypcrite ****!!!

    -- END OF LINE --


    RTM REPLY - you know, it's one thing to voice preference over current adjudication versus prior methods, but this statement is just over-the-top uncalled for.
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  5. 12-06-2019, 12:42 PM
    Quote Originally Posted by RTM View Post
    RTM REPLY - Team Metroid was quite different than the usual referees...the precedent was the Morrow brothers (Mike and Wolff) who were also prohibitted from cross-verifying each other's scores (or scores from their own family as they had active members submitting).

    Another precedent was referee-at-large Shawn Cram...he was unable to verify on his own any scores as he was not a senior level referee, but he made a point not to cross-verify scores by Jason Cram, Anna Cram, Christian Cram or David Dmers (a relative).
    i'll admit my memory could be wrong for this, but i could've sworn for the atari asteroids marathon that mike used to hold the record in, it was his brother who verified it. I even though that was thrown in his face when they complained about todd rogers 100 hr journey escape marathon. is this memory incorrect?
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  6. 12-06-2019, 12:47 PM
    memory right
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    of course he does say "co-verify" and i'm pretty sure english is his native language. team metroid made similiar comments about co-verifying that were dismissed as language issuse to just mean they also saw

    so was the rule that they couldnt be the sole referee, but they could in fact "co-verify"?
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  7. 12-06-2019, 01:09 PM
    Let me try to clarify one last time, as I don't think I am communicating effectively enough.

    Quote Originally Posted by thegamer1185 View Post
    As for him interfering, that can only mean his refusal to supply the performance tape. That's not interference, that's just him not wanting to "participate" in that part of the dispute which you told him many times he wasn't obligated to. And he doesn't have to help re-prove his score.
    Rodrigo's personal decision to make it publicly known that he was in possession of the tape, and would not provide it, was the interference.

    He chose to do that on his own. Why? For what purpose? It doesn't matter if he had to provide the tape or not - that does not change the fact that his proclamation and reference to it definitely interfered with the process deliberately.

    if you want to just simply overlook the implied benefits he may have been attempting to achieve by making it known he had a copy of the performance, that's up to you - but regardless you can see the impact throughout the dispute thread as it had people repeatedly focused on asking him for the tape, only for him to deny it. That is by design. This is because no matter how much work people put in to demonstrate their dispute claim assertions of performance invalidity, there was always a magical tape out there that can prove them wrong and potentially embarrass them (or whatever.)

    This is a form of manipulation. You dismiss it. TG does not.

    Quote Originally Posted by thegamer1185 View Post
    However -
    1. It somehow becomes his problem that someone opened a dispute against his score
    2. There's highly improbable but not definitive evidence to remove the score as said by you in that thread early on
    3. Now people have to take more time and resources to prove his score is definitively invalid
    4. He is now being punished for it because he isn't wanting to participate in finding that answer
    This is just flatly wrong. I keep telling you this is wrong, but you keep repeating it anyway. I don't know what else to say. Your point #4 is a fictional narrative you have created. Since I was part of the decision, I know exactly why the decision was made, and you are 100% mistaken in your statement. I put the blame for your misunderstanding on myself, as I have failed somewhere in the communication process.

    Quote Originally Posted by thegamer1185 View Post
    Rodrigo appears in his PM's to be reacting to all of the "haters" who have been hounding him for years. You addressed that in your PM's by saying that you understand that can be very frustrating. These PM's appear to be of a guy who doesn't trust that things will just end if he helps. He feels attacked repeatedly and if he provides the tape, another one of his scores will be questioned and he will have to do it again. He is reacting to things he says where being done to him. How many of us would willfully help people trying to effectively attack who we are? Rodrigo was reacting to things he says that have been repeatedly done to him.
    Certainly that can be one interpretation. Another interpretation is that we were witnessing the distraction behavior of someone trying to hide a misrepresentation. I've personally seen this exact scenario in other dispute processes and it is nothing new.

    Obviously there is no way to know which interpretation is more accurate - which is why none of it factored into the decision. It was far more binary.

    Quote Originally Posted by thegamer1185 View Post
    "Those actions are very targeted and impactful to the process along with its participants and must be considered always." This quoted sentence is from the first paragraph above. I think he was trying to convey to you that the actions of those "haters" against him must be considered and apparently they were impacting his process to willfully help. He felt attacked, and reacted to it. Some people can't handle pressure, or being backed in a corner, or anxiety, or any number of human emotions that can really cause a person to react in ways they do. I don't know, but it does explain why he would not want to help TG or them. You don't have to like it, but it definitely explains why. I don't know if that is the answer, but it's not to difficult to read his PM that way.
    I know what he was conveying to me. As I said before it is nothing new - and just like in other scenarios where this exact type of sentiment was expressed, it's totally irrelevant to how the decision was made.

    Quote Originally Posted by thegamer1185 View Post
    I definitely said he deserves a punishment for withholding evidence before and also above. Not for manipulating or interfering in the dispute, but for withholding evidence. Full ban unless he uploads the score and apologizes for it was my take on that. And again, I don't see where he was preventing any evidence from being brought forth. He had some side bar chats with some guys who posted all of those chats. He called people some names and what not, but in no way did he ever prevent them from coming forward. I bet if you asked people I don't think they felt intimidated in the least bit by him. Actually, I believe people where poking fun at him for ranting and not uploading his performance. I don't think I poked fun, but I know I urged him to upload it a few times.
    This is where your view and the TG view completely diverge. TG doesn't care that he withheld evidence. He does not have to provide anything. That is not the issue. The issue was that he chose to participate in the process and attempted to manipulate and further frustrate it. Doesn't matter by what mechanism he did this. I think that is where you are becoming confused.

    Quote Originally Posted by thegamer1185 View Post
    As for your question regarding my 2 points. They are not related to one another except for one thing that EVERYONE already agrees on; A cheated score being found. That's it. A scores validity has nothing to do with any actions anywhere else ever UNLESS the act is being found of cheating another score.
    Ok I understand you now. That is not how TG operates. Definitive proof of invalidity is not the only way you can lose your scores. Having an inflexible rule like that allows for manipulation and exploitation - and rest assured, with a hyper-detailed and pedantic community, those loopholes will be found and exploited all day every day.

    Quote Originally Posted by thegamer1185 View Post
    The score is the score. The who doesn't matter. Seriously, if TGSAP was anonymous almost every score accepted into the database would be 100% accurate because personal feelings/agendas/whatevers wouldn't be used. You are voting on the score. The focus is the score. Not the who, but the score. The score, the score, the score. We gamers have a lot of opinions and personalities, but without them, all we have is the score to view. I however have already poked fun at this anonymous approach because I myself, always say my name so that shoots the anonymity process in the foot. Still would be great to figure out a way for anonymity submissions.
    This is the most enlightening thing you have said to me, because now I truly understand why we miscommunicate.

    Let me clear this up. A score by itself is just a score. It is meaningless. It requires attribution for value to be created. A score? In what game? By what measure? These are additional questions that must be answered in order for a score to be anything more than a number. My point is that other elements besides the score itself are what actually make a score (or speed run) important.

    Twin Galaxies is not in existence to purely record numbers for the sake of recording numbers. What is the point of that? There is no point. The numbers have to be useful for people, they have to carry meaning. The more meaning TG can assign to the numbers, the greater the value of them and those that are associated with them.

    When Walter Day founded Twin Galaxies in 1981 his desire was to bring recognition to people not numbers. That is what Twin Galaxies is about, recognition of people's achievements. If you re-read what you wrote above within that context you will see that you are looking at trees and not the forest. Anonymity you want to aspire toward is literally exactly the opposite of the point of Twin Galaxies - yet your unrestricted logic flow took you right there. That is why we are not effectively communicating. We are on entirely different pages.

    Quote Originally Posted by thegamer1185 View Post
    And your second part of that question I have already answered in my other post. A person's actions have nothing to do with their scores validity...unless that action is cheating as stated above. If they feel that threatening dispute participants is the way to go, then a ban prevents them from continuing to do so and I guess they just lost their chance to defend their dispute had they chosen to participate.
    You are correct in that a person's actions has nothing to do with their score's validity (unless cheating). 100% true! However it is important to understand that there is a delta between a score being valid, and whether or not TG will recognize it.

    There are lots of valid scores out there on the internet, yet TG doesn't recognize them due to various reasons such as the score not having gone through TGSAP for example.

    So again, Twin Galaxies is focused on the recognition and celebration of people who have achieved verified performances. It is not focused on the recognition and celebration of performances that happen to have people attached to them. It is only in that later part of the statement that one could contemplate actually eliminating the people themselves and only celebrating the scores.

    That's not Twin Galaxies.

    Quote Originally Posted by thegamer1185 View Post
    You want an accurate leaderboard, you have to remove the emotion from it.
    There is no emotion in this. Rest assured. I think you may be seeing something that is not there and that may be perhaps because your lens on what is important has pedantically focused on score validity unto itself over the primary reason why the score is recorded and why Twin Galaxies is here in the first place.

    Quote Originally Posted by thegamer1185 View Post
    Rodrigo not showing the full run doesn't change the fact that under TG rules of the time, the score was entered, it's valid until definitively proven otherwise.
    And here is another miscommunication on my part. No one said the performance was invalid. Highly improbable, yes - but that's it.

    What was said is that Twin Galaxies will no longer recognize or stand behind it. Please understand the difference. The performance's validity is currently unknown to all but Rodrigo himself.

    And this is specifically for @cantaloupeme:
    ----
    For absolute crystal clarity - The decision to remove Mr. Lopes scores was made based on a combination of all of the elements in the dispute claim thread and not just one specific aspect of it. The contributions of the visiting speedrun community members most certainly played a significant role and we may not have come to the same decision without ALL the elements within the dispute claim thread.

    It's is an absolute farce and does a complete disservice to all involved for anyone to believe or assert that the decision was based on any one single element of the dispute claim thread.

    As someone who was part of the decision making process I can assure you that the decision was not made based on "character" in any way.

    The contributions from the speed run community to this dispute process were essential and valuable and make no mistake TG is very appreciative of the participation. This is a difficult process for all involved.
    -----

    Quote Originally Posted by thegamer1185 View Post
    I don't know how else to say a validated score is a validated score and deserves all the protection in the world unless proven definitely otherwise.
    100% agree however the referee system of the past has created problems that are challenging to address, and while TG has clear policy and structure for the new era it will work to try to not allow those policies to be taken advantage of. This is a highly unique situation and the correct decision was made to improve scoreboard integrity and deep consideration was given to all the factors involved.

    I sincerely hope that Rodrgio is able to post the video of his performance that demonstrates the veracity of his performance claim. I'm sure that there are many people who would appreciate seeing something that they believed was impossible.

    In the meanwhile, I do appreciate your perspective on the matter and I can at least understand where you are coming from now.

    Thank you for taking the time to explain.

    Onward.
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  8. 12-06-2019, 01:12 PM
    Quote Originally Posted by RTM View Post
    RTM REPLY - you know, it's one thing to voice preference over current adjudication versus prior methods, but this statement is just over-the-top uncalled for.
    You know what Robert? You are absolutely correct. I apologize for my crass statement. I'll see if I can edit it. You are one of the good ones, I never meant to include you in my rant. I was triggerred by Barfax's groundless accusations.

    Bill
    Help me beat Snowflake at the "Like Game"
    Creator of Arcade Retro Clock


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  9. 12-06-2019, 01:36 PM
    @Jace Hall , no worries at all from me. This has been a good discussion. I take responsibility for the miscommunication as well. I know I definitely don't put into words exactly what I'm thinking. I guess the only thing I have left to say is that the way I am perceiving how this whole dispute score was handled, the experts of the game perceived it to be the same way as well. It appeared to be more about his actions than the invalidity of the score itself. You say that's a part of how the dispute system works, okay. I guess now we know.

    I don't necessarily think people started to just focus on the tape because he was manipulating them or trying to interfer with the process of the dispute. Even if that was his intent, for this particular dispute, it had no impact IMO. I think all the analysis that could be done on that 5 minute tape was done. There was nothing left to review. I guess that's why I don't see the manipulation in it. Literally nobody had anything to else to offer to the run unless he showed it. Hence why we all just started repeatedly asking him to submit. I could be wrong on that, but that's it appeared to me.Like I said, I thought he was trying to manipulate you into just giving a ban for an extended period of time, let things blow over and he comes back and people would accept the punish.

    I guess now I know that validity of the score isn't the only thing that can remove it. To be fair, I don't think to many people were aware of this element being a part of the dispute. I still don't agree with it, but I've voiced my concerns and some agree with me so that's all I can do. I would answer your posts again but I'm pretty sure you and I could make this a never ending conversation and there is nothing I can say even if I convince you otherwise to change the verdict, haha. No worries. Again, TGSAP and the Dispute system are great...I just think there are some elements that may need to be documented and put somewhere for reference. The dispute system is still in the infant stage, having some sort of log as to what was needed and wasn't needed in disputes may help progress the system along more smoothly.
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  10. 12-06-2019, 02:31 PM
    Quote Originally Posted by Jace Hall View Post
    I sincerely hope that Rodrgio is able to post the video of his performance that demonstrates the veracity of his performance claim. I'm sure that there are many people who would appreciate seeing something that they believed was impossible.
    Onward.
    How long does Rodrigo have to upload this video? I don't want to be permanently banned 8 years down the road for a mistake I made when I was 8 years younger.
    Help me beat Snowflake at the "Like Game"
    Creator of Arcade Retro Clock


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