Dispute: Angela Stefanski - Atari Jaguar - Zool 2 - USA - Player: Marielle VandenBroek - Score: 104,740

Is this a valid dispute?

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  1. Dispute: Angela Stefanski - Atari Jaguar - Zool 2 - USA - Player: Marielle VandenBroek - Score: 104,740

    12-26-2019, 07:31 PM
    Atari Jaguar - Zool 2 - USA
    Score Track
    https://www.twingalaxies.com/scores.php?scores=948
    Rules
    This game has no settings for the player to select, therefore no specific rules apply. Please use default settings.
    Player Name
    Marielle VandenBroek
    Original Adjudication
    N/A
    Verification Method
    Referee
    Verification Date
    2004-06-11
    Disputed Score
    104,740 (Rank 3)
    Disputed By
    GibGirl
    Dispute Evidence / Rationale
    Still going with the good ol' crap score removal. (I invite anyone else interested in helping clean things up to look at the first link below, find any of those scores that are on TG, and dispute them with a copy or paraphrasing of the text of this dispute.)

    This score was added to the database from an external site. https://goo.gl/wUb5X8 (link to internet archive mirror) Evidence is strong that this site did absolutely no validations of any of the scores, accepting all claims as valid. Just looking at the content of the page, with just a form to "submit" a score, shows this to be likely.

    Further, multiple scores added to the database from this external list have already been disputed and removed due to being impossible, (see this dispute: https://www.twingalaxies.com/showthr...13,343,567,930) which should itself be sufficient to show that nothing on that list should be considered trustworthy. Also, this particular score is attributed to a person that is not a TG user, and has submitted no scores to TG at any point.

    I believe this score does not meet any of the standards for inclusion on TG and should be removed.
    Thanks Garrett Holland thanked this post
  2. 01-01-2020, 01:18 PM
    Not sure how it got allowed if no evidence presented. If none at all, easy to remove it.
  3. 01-03-2020, 11:00 AM
    Hey folks,

    I cant provide a whole lot of background on that page - however there is one of my scores posted on it. I never submitted a score to whomever the person was who managed the page (that Im aware of) so 1 of 2 things probably happened here:

    1. Prior to their being a TG managed database, the ref's involved managed their own websites of scores. I had a Colecovision and Intellivision page with the scores I verified. Once the database was in place these scores were moved there. This could've been the original Jag page

    2. This person took scores of the TG site and mixed it with their own

    Sorry I cant add more info to this - they actually have an old work email address for me. One I did not have at the time this site would've been active. I also would not have used a work email address either.

    Weird either way!
    Goochman
    TG Senior Adviser Atari 800/XL/XE '03-'08
    TG Colecovision/Intellivision Referee '98-'03
  4. 01-03-2020, 11:11 AM
    Looking again I have 2 scores on that sheet - my name is spelled wrong on the 2nd one and it uses my old erols email account. So I have 2 scores with different names and email addresses :)

    I was hoping to find an old screenshot of my scores but they are not to be found. Both of my scores are legit scores I achieved.

    The Pinball Fantasies and Hover Strike scores look reasonable. Cant comment on the others at this time.
    Goochman
    TG Senior Adviser Atari 800/XL/XE '03-'08
    TG Colecovision/Intellivision Referee '98-'03
    Thanks GibGirl thanked this post
  5. 01-03-2020, 11:49 AM
    Since I recently had my Jaguar out I remembered that Pinball Fantasies and Hover Strike do save High Scores - checking my carts the scores on those pages for me Knox/Know are correct. Im happy to provide photo proof if anyone cares :)
    Goochman
    TG Senior Adviser Atari 800/XL/XE '03-'08
    TG Colecovision/Intellivision Referee '98-'03
  6. 01-03-2020, 11:51 AM
    Quote Originally Posted by goochman View Post
    Hey folks,

    I cant provide a whole lot of background on that page - however there is one of my scores posted on it. I never submitted a score to whomever the person was who managed the page (that Im aware of) so 1 of 2 things probably happened here:

    1. Prior to their being a TG managed database, the ref's involved managed their own websites of scores. I had a Colecovision and Intellivision page with the scores I verified. Once the database was in place these scores were moved there. This could've been the original Jag page

    2. This person took scores of the TG site and mixed it with their own

    Sorry I cant add more info to this - they actually have an old work email address for me. One I did not have at the time this site would've been active. I also would not have used a work email address either.

    Weird either way!
    That's extremely interesting. Do you know any other places that you would have shared that score information that it might have been picked up from? When I was digging into this info, I did find that it looked like some of the high score information was in the Atari Jaguar FAQ that was going around. Might you have shared your scores on a usenet group or some mailing list, and they grabbed it from there?
  7. 01-03-2020, 12:47 PM
    Quote Originally Posted by GibGirl View Post
    That's extremely interesting. Do you know any other places that you would have shared that score information that it might have been picked up from? When I was digging into this info, I did find that it looked like some of the high score information was in the Atari Jaguar FAQ that was going around. Might you have shared your scores on a usenet group or some mailing list, and they grabbed it from there?
    No - my only High Score involvement way back then was with Snipercade, Some guys website I cant remember(Sam Hartman?) who didnt verify scores and then Twin Galaxies.

    Sams? website I only submitted Atari 800 scores to briefly before realizing he took anything anyone submitted.

    I wont rehash Rons story but Snipercade was the start of managing alot of classic scores. I took ownership of Colecovision and Intellivision pages and ran those as a "loose collection" of TG websites with an attempt of authentication.

    This Jaguar page kinda looks like one of those - but my Atari/Coleco/Intellivision scores along with pics/some video were sent to Ron to verify. Maybe he provided the scores to this site to publish?

    Most of my Jaguar and Atari ST scores were set to just get some data into the database(which was sparse for those platforms). Im 99.999999% certain my Jag scores we accomplished once the official database was in place and not when we had this loose collection of websites. I only say this with certainty due to the fact I was trying to expand the database on other platforms to generate some interest in taking my scores down.

    Snipercade homepage is still available through wayback: https://web.archive.org/web/20000919...ade.com/atari/

    It does have a section for Jaguar scores which unfort does not exist. This is where anything Jag related I submitted would've ended up. Im thinking this page scrapped scores from Snipercade and possibly combined with their own? Was a bit of the wild west back then.
    Goochman
    TG Senior Adviser Atari 800/XL/XE '03-'08
    TG Colecovision/Intellivision Referee '98-'03
  8. 01-04-2020, 11:06 AM
    Quote Originally Posted by goochman View Post
    Most of my Jaguar and Atari ST scores were set to just get some data into the database(which was sparse for those platforms). Im 99.999999% certain my Jag scores we accomplished once the official database was in place and not when we had this loose collection of websites. I only say this with certainty due to the fact I was trying to expand the database on other platforms to generate some interest in taking my scores down.

    Snipercade homepage is still available through wayback: https://web.archive.org/web/20000919...ade.com/atari/

    It does have a section for Jaguar scores which unfort does not exist. This is where anything Jag related I submitted would've ended up. Im thinking this page scrapped scores from Snipercade and possibly combined with their own? Was a bit of the wild west back then.
    Did Snipercade share user email addresses? I can't tell from the little bit I can see on wayback. Or the old TG? Just wondering where they would have gotten your email to put on there. Maybe that could be a clue to what was going on here.

    I'm just hoping to see if we can puzzle out a bit more how this all worked, before I do any more disputes. I don't think it makes any of the scores I'm disputing any more legitimate - clearly however all these scores were handled was a confusing mess. But better understanding would definitely be welcome.

    Also, if you still have a Jaguar, I'd like to encourage you to claim your scores and then submit new ones to beat them. What better way to deal with these scores? ;)
  9. 01-05-2020, 12:01 PM
    Quote Originally Posted by GibGirl View Post
    Did Snipercade share user email addresses? I can't tell from the little bit I can see on wayback. Or the old TG? Just wondering where they would have gotten your email to put on there. Maybe that could be a clue to what was going on here.

    I'm just hoping to see if we can puzzle out a bit more how this all worked, before I do any more disputes. I don't think it makes any of the scores I'm disputing any more legitimate - clearly however all these scores were handled was a confusing mess. But better understanding would definitely be welcome.

    Also, if you still have a Jaguar, I'd like to encourage you to claim your scores and then submit new ones to beat them. What better way to deal with these scores? ;)
    For the most part the scores were handled through Snipercade and Ron. The scores were kept on spreadsheets and posted to websites maintained by the Refs. I dont remember that site with the Jag scores - Ron might have enlisted that guy to handle the score sheet like he had me manage the Colecovision and Intellivision score sheet.

    At some point (forgot the year - RTM prob remembers), these spreadsheets were uploaded into the official TG database. Each ref created an upload script that was pushed in. It was a major PIA.

    At some point I believe the DB was reorganized and web tools created to add scores.

    The history of the database came from these spreadsheets and refs that for the most part worked through Ron until the official DB was created.

    Yes I do still have my Jag but no real motivation to play for high scores :) - I have screenshots of my scoreboard so if thats enough to get my score put back up Im happy to provide, otherwise its just for fun on this side nowadays.
    Goochman
    TG Senior Adviser Atari 800/XL/XE '03-'08
    TG Colecovision/Intellivision Referee '98-'03
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