More Shenanigans with Respect to DK, Billy and Possibly Walter as Well...these from 1983 !!

  1. 06-04-2020, 09:33 AM
    Quote Originally Posted by francoisadt View Post
    So why is his score not in TG database?
    See here:
    https://www.twingalaxies.com/game/do.../1?ref=fbshare
    These DK Jr scores, for reason(s) unknown to us, were not included in the 1998 TG Official Video Game and Pinball Book of World Records. Since the book was the basis for the TG database for arcade scores, they weren't included going forward. One possible explanation is that when Walter was preparing his book he only had access to copies of the TGIS that pre-dated the acceptance of these higher scores. Walter did have a page on the original TG site called "Lost Scores," where he invited gamers to find and send in magazines or publications that featured TG scores back in the 1980s that he lost track of. Others have mused if there was a conscious decision to exclude these higher scores, but we simply don't know.

    What we do know is that the original TGIS did accept and track these DK Junior scores, and some of them were subsequently featured in magazines in 1986. So it is a lost chapter in the chronology of DK Jr high scores that may deserve some renewed attention for the historically minded.
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  2. 06-04-2020, 10:07 AM
    Quote Originally Posted by The Evener View Post
    These DK Jr scores, for reason(s) unknown to us, were not included in the 1998 TG Official Video Game and Pinball Book of World Records. Since the book was the basis for the TG database for arcade scores, they weren't included going forward. One possible explanation is that when Walter was preparing his book he only had access to copies of the TGIS that pre-dated the acceptance of these higher scores. Walter did have a page on the original TG site called "Lost Scores," where he invited gamers to find and send in magazines or publications that featured TG scores back in the 1980s that he lost track of. Others have mused if there was a conscious decision to exclude these higher scores, but we simply don't know.

    What we do know is that the original TGIS did accept and track these DK Junior scores, and some of them were subsequently featured in magazines in 1986. So it is a lost chapter in the chronology of DK Jr high scores that may deserve some renewed attention for the historically minded.
    So could this score be added and grandfathered given there are evidence that this score is real by following a different process than the current TGSAP or allow/change TGSAP to include these scores? @Jace Hall @The Evener @datagod ?
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    Francois du Toit
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  3. 06-04-2020, 10:11 AM
    Or not to against the reasons why TGSAP is there in the first place.. have different tracks for these? because allow scores from old magazines or new articles again will open a can of worms for bogus scores vs valid scores from a oyster finding a pearl. So contrast unfortunate..
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    Francois du Toit
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  4. 06-04-2020, 10:19 AM
    Quote Originally Posted by francoisadt View Post
    Or not to against the reasons why TGSAP is there in the first place.. have different tracks for these? because allow scores from old magazines or new articles again will open a can of worms for bogus scores vs valid scores from a oyster finding a pearl. So contrast unfortunate..
    we're so busy reviewing bad scores that shouldnt be in we never review good scores (or possibly bad scores) removed

    i see a lot of benefit to this, though maybe not officilally part of the scoreboard.
    Its interesting historiclaly to see what was there. the historical scores can go along way to explaining why other people gave up or pushed harder. those scores missing gives a misleading look at the scores that remain

    its good to know when bad scores were removed what the bar was, and when identical conditions are met it can be justification to remove such scores

    its good to know when good scores were removed. That corruption also shines a light on what the actual motives of the day were

    i've hardly seen every score, and its possible the removals i'm aware of arent representative. but every time i stumble on score removals theres an overwhelming theme of scores that beat referres had a far greater chance of being removed than scores that didnt beat referees when all other things were equal.
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  5. 06-04-2020, 01:22 PM
    I agree with Snowflake, I think they can be acknowledged, but probably not part of the original scoreboard since there may be some sensitivity around TG incorporating scores in such a fashion during the TGSAP era.

    On the one hand, it's kind of crappy for those other DK Junior champs were denied their due when the "new" TG launched in 1997. The history of DK Junior competition would have been completely different for Steve Wiebe and others if those million plus scores from the early 1980s were incorporated into the TG database when it launched. On the other hand, we've had 20 years of competition on DK Junior with a different set of scores, which in turn created its own history, controversies, etc. As I mentioned, I'm interested in establishing a wiki that provides a "one stop shop" for all high score tracking, whether TGIS, newsgroup high score lists, console websites that fed scores into the TG database when it launched, etc. Maybe a "subset" of that wiki can be devoted to these "lost" DK Junior scores?
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  6. 06-04-2020, 01:33 PM
    dk has seen enough action, that yes with or without those scores the rest of the history probably wouldve been the same. in other games not so much especially many todd rogers scores. his scores were so high many gave up. once his scores were wiped people started submitting much more. it gives the false impression that for decades noone was able to crack certain score when in reality they could they just didnt see the point when todd was so much higher
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  7. 06-04-2020, 01:44 PM
    Quote Originally Posted by The Evener View Post
    I agree with Snowflake, I think they can be acknowledged, but probably not part of the original scoreboard since there may be some sensitivity around TG incorporating scores in such a fashion during the TGSAP era.

    On the one hand, it's kind of crappy for those other DK Junior champs were denied their due when the "new" TG launched in 1997. The history of DK Junior competition would have been completely different for Steve Wiebe and others if those million plus scores from the early 1980s were incorporated into the TG database when it launched. On the other hand, we've had 20 years of competition on DK Junior with a different set of scores, which in turn created its own history, controversies, etc. As I mentioned, I'm interested in establishing a wiki that provides a "one stop shop" for all high score tracking, whether TGIS, newsgroup high score lists, console websites that fed scores into the TG database when it launched, etc. Maybe a "subset" of that wiki can be devoted to these "lost" DK Junior scores?
    Your "one stop shop" scoring web site/wiki is it in progress / or launched in some draft form yet?
    Are you aware from a person "GHEMANT" from MARP Forum that did a project called: "ARCA"

    On the MARP Forum thread refers to: "ARCA project, arcade world record list (pdf document)"
    http://forums.marpirc.net/viewtopic.php?f=2&t=16296

    Did score for about 600 titles more shoot-them-ups (DK Pac-Man ect..) you will not find their.
    Did some include 14 of the bottom half of the TOP KLOV 100 list.

    He did have information on Japanese scoreboards and how to access them.

    I agree with it will be great to have a separate section on your wiki listing scores that could have been included earlier which never were included.
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    Francois du Toit
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  8. 06-05-2020, 05:39 AM
    Quote Originally Posted by The Evener View Post
    These DK Jr scores, for reason(s) unknown to us, were not included in the 1998 TG Official Video Game and Pinball Book of World Records. Since the book was the basis for the TG database for arcade scores, they weren't included going forward. One possible explanation is that when Walter was preparing his book he only had access to copies of the TGIS that pre-dated the acceptance of these higher scores. Walter did have a page on the original TG site called "Lost Scores," where he invited gamers to find and send in magazines or publications that featured TG scores back in the 1980s that he lost track of. Others have mused if there was a conscious decision to exclude these higher scores, but we simply don't know.

    What we do know is that the original TGIS did accept and track these DK Junior scores, and some of them were subsequently featured in magazines in 1986. So it is a lost chapter in the chronology of DK Jr high scores that may deserve some renewed attention for the historically minded.
    From Scott,

    "To The Evener: I am beyond pleased to hear that you replied with an interest in revisiting the missing Donkey Kong Junior scores.

    You are correct in noting that the vintage Twin Galaxies scoreboard is not represented on this website. Few seem to realize that, even though it has been stated for public record this entire time. The original scoreboard(s) were tossed out / lost in the early 1990s and the online database was rebuilt from whatever people could turn up. This means a LOT of scores from "back in the day" never made it in, even though they were validated by Twin Galaxies.

    I've been fighting to get the missing DKJ scores reinstated for 11 years. I fought for it when I worked here, I've fought for it off and on since. I've posted on social media and even published an article with NBCUniversal about it and I believe I pushed it in Gameroom Magazine as well.

    My attempts were cast as some sort of non-existent grudge against Mitchell when it's simply a case of wanting the full history of the scoreboard in tact. I presented this to all subsequent ownerships, who ignored it.

    My personal belief is that the scores were purposely omitted. Many were published in common magazines like Joystik and Video Games in the early 1980s. These magazines were among those used to rebuild the scoreboard. There were copies present on display at the Big Bang in 2010. And nobody has ever been able to give me a reason why they would have ever been removed. There were no notes in the system about them being removed when I worked here, as was the case with a lot of scores that were pulled.

    So many here are (over) focused on removing old scores but nobody seems to care that the scoreboard is missing a ton of scores.

    Here are photos of magazine publishings of three of the four DKJ scores I found that TG accepted that were higher than Mitchell's 1982 record. I've also included a Lock 'n' Chase score that turned up inside of a TG-published printout from back in the day. I've been pushing since 2016 - the year this newsletter turned up - to get this Lock 'n' Chase score re-published but again, was ignored. I also mentioned this missing score in an issue of GameRoom Magazine as part of said effort.

    Joel West also had a Rally-X score that went AWOL. Attempts to get that published were also blown off. It even appeared on Walter Day posters in 1999 but never made it into the website.

    To sum up... if the modern Twin Galaxies will actually make an effort to listen and act on long missing scores, then this is pleasing news. It's long overdue and the people that set those recognized scores deserve recognition as champions / past champions.

    If you ever wish to reach out to me directly for more context on this long missing content I'm all ears."
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  9. 06-05-2020, 05:43 AM
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    What a pain in the ass this is to keep text formatting correctly and add pictures...
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  10. 06-05-2020, 07:59 AM
    I know a score that is missing:
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    He got a killscreen an announced it publicly. The score was allegedly entered into TG database, then removed by other referees as it was not properly adjudicated.

    I say we honor the word of a prolific submitter (and well respected senior referee in charge of the marketing department of Twin Galaxies) and re-instate his score. What a disservice to integrity and truth to let this incredible achievement be lost to time.

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    Your friend, datagod

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