Dispute: Garrett Holland - ColecoVision / Adam - Donkey Kong - NTSC/PAL - Skill 1 - Player: Thane Woidan - Score: 1,534,600

Is this a valid dispute?

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  1. Dispute: Garrett Holland - ColecoVision / Adam - Donkey Kong - NTSC/PAL - Skill 1 - Player: Thane Woidan - Score: 1,534,600

    03-29-2020, 07:51 PM
    ColecoVision / Adam - Donkey Kong - NTSC/PAL - Skill 1
    Score Track
    https://www.twingalaxies.com/scores.php?scores=5336
    Rules
    This variation is for both NTSC and PAL as there is no diffference between the two on the ColecoVision Video Game Console.
    Player Name
    Thane Woidan
    Original Adjudication
    https://www.twingalaxies.com/showthread.php?t=143874
    Verification Method
    TGSAP
    Verification Date
    2015-06-14
    Disputed Score
    1,534,600 (Rank 4)
    Disputed By
    Garrett Holland
    Dispute Evidence / Rationale
    Verification says TGSAP. The only evidence provided was an external link, the contect of which is now apparently unavailable. According to the policy here --> https://www.twingalaxies.com/wiki_in...idence-package:

    <QUOTE>"In order to ensure recognition by Twin Galaxies, your video evidence must be uploaded directly to the Twin Galaxies website. As of March 2018 we no longer accept video evidence hosted by a third party, including YouTube and Twitch. Any score submissions that do not follow this policy will be rejected and/or disqualified by Twin Galaxies administration.
    The reason for this is that your submission will serve as a permanent accessible record of your score performance and will be linked to your score in the database.

    Video links provided before this policy change are not regarded as permanent. In some cases video evidence has been removed and this counts as a valid reason for Twin Galaxies members to officially dispute these scores.
    Additionally, if the video is not under the jurisdiction and control of Twin Galaxies, it means that voting members know that the video could be tampered with AFTER a vote has taken place.</QUOTE>

    (Emphasis via embolden, mine.)

    I'd normally attempt to reach out to the submitter in question, however, I can find no evidence showing that he has logged in more than 2 or 3 times since he joined in 2015.
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  2. 03-29-2020, 08:35 PM
    The video is still there, they just changed the url.

    https://www.twitch.tv/videos/48121399
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  3. 03-29-2020, 08:40 PM
    Quote Originally Posted by sdwyer138 View Post
    The video is still there, they just changed the url.

    https://www.twitch.tv/videos/48121399
    Great find, Sean! I'll message him on Twitch and ask him to upload his video to TG so that this dispute won't go through. I just hope he responds.
  4. 03-29-2020, 09:00 PM
    you've stumbled on a controversial one with this one garret the short answer is, by the rules it still gets removed, however theres a much longer thats led me to no longer agreeing with these challenges

    the rule was always evidence has to be permanent, even when using third party there was the understanding that if the video ever went missing the score would go, so the submitter had the responsiblity of finding reliable third party hosting if they wanted something to stay up forever. this is true even of submission before the date requiring direct upload

    for even this case i had specifically reached out to jace on a wall post and he maintained even in cases like this since the url changes that's still a change and deserves a dispute. i believe it was one of the missile command arcade scores i disputed on this principle

    however, though a case just like this has been mentioned by jace as reason for removal, my personal opinoin has changed from the argument. people put forth a convincing argument since the video is still there, and the url change was no fault of the submitter that its kind of a problem to dispute

    so i could never fault anyone for disputing these, not just cause i did it (i'm allowed to change my mind) but because the rules allow it, however i personally no longer want to support disputes like these.

    now if the video truly went missing totally different story. the submittesr fault or not, tgsap requires permanent evidence, in truly misisng videos -- which are often the submitters fault due to for example being banned from twitch for bad behavior i will absolutely still dispute though. but a changed twitch url, i just can no longer in good conscience support such removals
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  5. 03-29-2020, 09:11 PM
    Quote Originally Posted by Snowflake View Post
    since the video is still there
    But for how long? If the URL gets changed again 1 week from now, do I raise a dispute again? Or if the Twitch channel is outright removed? A month from now? A year? You raise good arguments, though. Tough call either way, which is why I'm going to try to get the guy to upload his video to TG and call it a day.
  6. 04-26-2020, 08:10 PM
    I mean... Can I just download it and upload it on his behalf? It would take less than an hour. I don't know anything about this player, I just am more than willing to provide such an easy fix if it is allowed and brings a quick conclusion.

    I know we don't want to go doing that for thousands and thousands of records, or have some that are given mercy by the random acts of kindness and not others, so I can see how maybe it *wouldn't* be encouraged. Just throwing it out there. If that's literally the meat of the dispute and we can fix it, I'm ok with just fixing it. A typical review of evidence by comparison is often way more work.
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  7. 04-26-2020, 08:49 PM
    Quote Originally Posted by Foot0fGod View Post
    I mean... Can I just download it and upload it on his behalf? It would take less than an hour. I don't know anything about this player, I just am more than willing to provide such an easy fix if it is allowed and brings a quick conclusion.

    I know we don't want to go doing that for thousands and thousands of records, or have some that are given mercy by the random acts of kindness and not others, so I can see how maybe it *wouldn't* be encouraged. Just throwing it out there. If that's literally the meat of the dispute and we can fix it, I'm ok with just fixing it. A typical review of evidence by comparison is often way more work.
    i know some people roll their eyes about what i'm about to say, but there are copyright issues with this. if you had his permission of course different story. its happened at least once before that someone did what you're suggesting to be helpful, but the person they were doing it for/too did not see it as very helpful, was unhappy, and very much did not want Twin Galaxies having their content on the site. yes yes it makes the weird debate of why someone would submit to tg while at the same time not being willing to let tg host their content, even still, thats their choice.

    you'll be happy to know TG now requires direct upload so its a moot point for all future submissions. but for those who used twitch back before direct upload was a rule we dont know if they're ok with tg hosting the files or if they'd object.
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  8. 04-26-2020, 09:59 PM
    I agree with everything Snowflake just said, and I'll add another something ... there is no way to positively assert that an upload of someone else's performance on someone else's behalf would be unedited, or even the same performance as was submitted. Sure, the score being the same is a good indicator, but without the input from the original submitter, it's not 100% certain that what would be represented was what or how the submitter wanted it represented, or what was even the universe of evidence that was originally voted on. I'm just wondering how long it will be until *this* URL is changed again, bringing this issue back to square one.
  9. 04-27-2020, 09:08 AM
    Makes sense to me! Just thought I'd ask. I suppose it's one of those things where the score is always there to be resubmitted at any rate.
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