Atari 2600 / VCS - Kangaroo - NTSC - Game 1, Difficulty B - 432,600 - Ulisses Lima

Is this Performance Claim Valid?

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  1. 04-08-2020, 01:50 AM
    Quote Originally Posted by Barthax View Post
    I'm happy to detail what I know of the history but most of the individuals that began the history of these decisions are no longer here, so we continue with the best methods which are in-keeping with the history - Garrett was just in-keeping with history.

    The general idea is to preserve the "level playing field" - the equipment in use should never impart an advantage.

    Obviously different people have different abilities and that individual ability is what makes us different (not a part of "level playing field").

    Equipment should be original where possible. Over the years this has become very muddy and is where this submission sits.

    Before 2014, TG operated a Referee system - the referees viewed the footage and checked against the rules.
    Before 2014, such third-party commercial multi-carts were simply banned. Hacks of consoles were banned. This was the base ruling.
    Before 2002 the Cuttle Cart was banned - something that permitted loading ROMs on the Atari 2600. It was banned because the ROMs were altered (changed to audio) and so not original.
    In 2004 the the Cuttle Cart II was accepted because the device made no alteration to the original ROM. It was up to the player to use the original ROM. Since the there have been many such devices and, for the Atari 2600, the Harmony is the most well-known at TG.
    Over time, TG kept a list of those devices which were permitted: https://www.twingalaxies.com/showthr...ti-Flash-Carts . Anything else was still banned.
    2013 TG died.
    2014 TG resurrected as a stale scoreboard (copy of old scoreboard only).
    2015 TG started accepting submissions via TGSAP. There are no Referees at all. Everyone in the community is an "adjudicator". Everyone must evaluate the rules, including all the hidden rules that the referees used to keep because the "level playing field" is the only correct way to compare scores.

    (Lots & lots of history, decisions and weird stuff missed.)

    One important thing: there are always exceptions! Very confusing!



    Great explanation.
    Very well written and enlightening.

    Here, we have a popular saying that says "stick that hits Chico, hits Francisco". That's because Chico is the affectionate form attributed to Francisco.

    What doesn't make sense to me is, if we should use instruments on equal terms, why doesn't Harmony (for example) have her own class to compete?

    The reason for banning multcarts is because they may contain ROMs that bring some advantage to the player. Everdrive also makes this possible.


    I understand that the rules are repeated over time.

    So my resistance to accepting what doesn't seem to make sense.


    Thank you for sharing the community's historical facts regarding this matter.
  2. 04-08-2020, 01:59 AM
    Quote Originally Posted by Barthax View Post
    I'd just like to say that you are welcome at Twin Galaxies and you have done nothing bad. The history makes things confusing. The cart is welcome at Twin Galaxies now (TGSAP tries to allow for all things). Garrett has made sure there is a place for the multi-cart by funding the tracks to support it (track creation is another weird thing here).

    Like Garrett, I also knew 432600 was an excellent score without watching. Congrats on the score! It has made my earliest memory of Atari 2600 come to life again - going around to a friends' house around 1984 and watching his dad play Kangaroo until the game prevented his progress while we played darts. Years later when I discovered TG and the talk of kill screens, I often have wondered if there was a kill screen in Kangaroo but my memories are too faded to understand what I saw as a child...

    Thank you very much for being welcome!

    :)

    I didn't notice any death screen. Going there at the very end of the video you can see that giving up playing because you were tired and hungry. lol

    I had never played this game before. (KANGAROO) And I was trying to improve my score for a WhatsApp group.

    I lost many lives falling from the platforms ... then I noticed the repetitions of the game and being more careful when jumping between platforms and with the fruits that fall from above. As far as I went, I didn't see the spoken death screen.


    Thank you very friendly reception.

    See you!
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  3. 04-08-2020, 02:05 AM
    Quote Originally Posted by Ulisses Patriota View Post
    Great explanation.
    Very well written and enlightening.

    Here, we have a popular saying that says "stick that hits Chico, hits Francisco". That's because Chico is the affectionate form attributed to Francisco.

    What doesn't make sense to me is, if we should use instruments on equal terms, why doesn't Harmony (for example) have her own class to compete?

    The reason for banning multcarts is because they may contain ROMs that bring some advantage to the player. Everdrive also makes this possible.


    I understand that the rules are repeated over time.

    So my resistance to accepting what doesn't seem to make sense.


    Thank you for sharing the community's historical facts regarding this matter.
    You are, of course, correct. Something I have said many times before is that the whole of the adjudication process has a large amount of trust. There are many many ways to deceive a submission even with an "original" cart - the PCB inside the cart may not be original - and we take on trust that something that looks like an original cart is original. The Harmony is an extension of this: the name of the ROM loaded looks like the original (often using a GoodTools or TOSEC naming format) and the gameplay looks like the original. The only thing left is trust that it is. However, because a Harmony (or similar) cart is used the adjudicators are more likely to look closer and request better evidence if something unusual happens (MD5 checks and such - is difficult but possible).

    With a multi-cart, we cannot request better evidence than you have given: you have supplied all the evidence we can expect within reasonable cost - we certainly cannot demand you open your cart!
    Lots of 1sts to be surpassed: what are you waiting for? Play the game, submit the score...
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  4. 04-08-2020, 02:19 AM
    Quote Originally Posted by Barthax View Post
    You are, of course, correct. Something I have said many times before is that the whole of the adjudication process has a large amount of trust. There are many many ways to deceive a submission even with an "original" cart - the PCB inside the cart may not be original - and we take on trust that something that looks like an original cart is original. The Harmony is an extension of this: the name of the ROM loaded looks like the original (often using a GoodTools or TOSEC naming format) and the gameplay looks like the original. The only thing left is trust that it is. However, because a Harmony (or similar) cart is used the adjudicators are more likely to look closer and request better evidence if something unusual happens (MD5 checks and such - is difficult but possible).

    With a multi-cart, we cannot request better evidence than you have given: you have supplied all the evidence we can expect within reasonable cost - we certainly cannot demand you open your cart!

    I understood. In the emulator, for example, it is much easier to check the Rom.

    The crucial point is that everdrive would require more confidence. So far they have never asked for more evidence, have they? Everdrive is treated like an original cartridge without being.

    I'm just trying to understand this better. Thank you for your patience in explaining.
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  5. 04-08-2020, 02:41 AM
    Quote Originally Posted by Ulisses Patriota View Post
    I understood. In the emulator, for example, it is much easier to check the Rom.

    The crucial point is that everdrive would require more confidence. So far they have never asked for more evidence, have they? Everdrive is treated like an original cartridge without being.

    I'm just trying to understand this better. Thank you for your patience in explaining.
    The Everdrive/Harmony cart itself is treated as being "not there" for the purposes of adjudication: the ROM which is loaded is the crucial piece which is considered "original cartridge". There is trust in regular users of Everdrive/Harmony because there is a lot for them to lose if caught cheating (permanent ban and all records removed). So the regular users become the "new" base knowledge of what is acceptable. It is how the community grows and becomes accustomed to new equipment: more evidence, more knowledge, better understanding.

    Thank you for your time and patience. :)
    Lots of 1sts to be surpassed: what are you waiting for? Play the game, submit the score...
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  6. 04-08-2020, 02:44 AM
    Quote Originally Posted by Barthax View Post
    The Everdrive/Harmony cart itself is treated as being "not there" for the purposes of adjudication: the ROM which is loaded is the crucial piece which is considered "original cartridge". There is trust in regular users of Everdrive/Harmony because there is a lot for them to lose if caught cheating (permanent ban and all records removed). So the regular users become the "new" base knowledge of what is acceptable. It is how the community grows and becomes accustomed to new equipment: more evidence, more knowledge, better understanding.

    Thank you for your time and patience. :)

    Thanks :)

    Att

    Ulisses
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