Atari 2600 / VCS - Kangaroo - NTSC - Game 1, Difficulty B - 432,600 - Ulisses Lima

Is this Performance Claim Valid?

    This poll is closed
This poll is closed
  1. 04-05-2020, 03:47 PM
    Are we seriously entertaining allowing third-party manufactured XXX-in-1 carts? Honestly asking ... when the hell did this become acceptable ... like ... ever ... on any platform?

    Literally, the first rule under "General Gameplay - Global Rules and Guidelines for all Submissions":

    "Unless otherwise specified in a game leaderboard variation rule set, the general rule is that all games are to be played with original hardware, with original game software."

    To anyone voting yes on this garbage, please explain to me what that rule means to you.
  2. 04-05-2020, 03:49 PM
    Quote Originally Posted by Evandro View Post
    I watched the entire video of the record starting and did not notice any irregularities, so my vote is yes !!!!!!
    And congratulations on the Ulisses score.
    Enjoy the cred hit ... there is no way this will get accepted, and if it does, I'll be disputing it.
  3. 04-05-2020, 04:24 PM
    Quote Originally Posted by Snowflake View Post
    let me ask you this, if someone hacked a rom to change the third level, but they lost all lives before completing the unedited first level would that be an issue?
    If it were found out that the ROM were a hacked version, that would absolutely still be an issue with me even if it didn't affect gameplay. It's not the original software.

    Quote Originally Posted by Snowflake View Post
    i strongly suspect people would be ok with a modification that doesnt affect gameplay in anyway.
    I have a challenging time believing for a second that I'm the only one that isn't ok with modifications, whether they affect gameplay or not. And, if your suspicion is accurate, then that would be most unfortunate.

    Quote Originally Posted by Snowflake View Post
    i'm not saying thats ok i just think its important to ask how we feel in general to make sure all are treated the same
    That is a sentiment that I can certainly appreciate. I'm just wondering if when this gets rejected, in what way would you suppose he would have been treated in a different manner than anyone else under the same circumstances?
  4. 04-05-2020, 04:28 PM
    Quote Originally Posted by TRB_MetroidTeam View Post
    Is this Performance Claim Valid?
    Yes. Accepted.
    You can enjoy the cred hit, too ... sheesh ... that's a almost 2,000-point swing in a bad direction. Glad to see that you'll stand on your principles and *not* unvote or change your vote to no when you see the writing on the wall ... or will you?
  5. 04-05-2020, 04:44 PM
    In the case of multicarts, consistency would mean rejecting

    HOWEVER, for some reason, when dealing with anything other than multicarts theres a growing minority that believes all that should matter is the gameplay. if that voice were to win eventually in other areas, then it should apply here to.
    Lode Runner champ, also, Roy was right
    Thanks Ulisses Patriota thanked this post
  6. 04-05-2020, 04:52 PM
    Guys,

    I carefully observed the technical issues presented in this post. I understand that there are reasons that direct the analysis of this performance to the technical field.

    As there is a clear separation between the technical issues involving the ROM used and the evidence set presented by the player Ulysses, some points caught my attention:

    1) it seems to me well established that the filming presented did not show any evidence of irregularity, and the images are an integral and important part of the evidence set,

    2) the presumption of the innocence of the player seems to me necessary, since he would not have had control over the manufacture of the cartridge, therefore, the player could not be held responsible for any corrupted or hacked ROM, even more when it comes to something that was not demonstrated in the filming. I once owned a 480 in 1 cartridge, and it was clear to me that not all ROMs are true to the original. I was able to verify this clearly by using the AARVARK game rom. In the version present in the cartridge, the lives were infinite, which does not occur in the original ROM I use today, in the SD cartridge. In addition, there were striking graphic differences. However, I cannot compare Kangaroo versions, I no longer have the 480 cartridge, which was replaced by the SD cartridge.


    3) even if this specific cartridge manufacturer not supported or trusted by the community for reasons already explained, the player Ulisses participates in this issue only as a player, and does not share responsibilities with the manufacturer,

    4) up to the present moment (and if I am mistaken I ask my colleagues to correct me as soon as possible) restrictions established in the TG rules regarding the use of this type of cartridge (because the original software may be contained in the cartridge, which would be verified by MD5), even though there is common sense in not accepting them for understandable reasons and already exposed.

    5) as a compass for a case that has similarities with what we are analyzing, the famous Todd Rogers case, and its record canceled in Dragster, whose process basically consisted of a previously accepted score analysis (phase we are in), and further analysis of the evidence set (phase we will be in, with possible openings of dispute), through (including) technical resources that demonstrated the issues.

    Based on these topics, I understand that the fairest criterion to apply in this evaluation is to vote based on what was demonstrated in the evidence set, and once the score is admitted by the TG (that will make the final and definitive analysis of the case), then the opportune moment for technical questions will arise, which is the opening of a dispute. At that time, it will be up to the player to obtain and pass on the necessary information for the dispute to be decided, and thus we would have a duly registered precedent so that, in the future, such issues are resolved.

    Based on this argument, I will opt for the positive vote, with the proviso of suggesting to the player Ulisses that he make immediate contact with the manufacturer of his cartridge, to seek information about the MD5, and with that offer the community even more substrate to analyze his submission. Even though we are dealing with technical issues in a future dispute, he can now enrich his evidence set right now, looking for information that can make his performance even more reliable.

    As for the possibility of dispute, already raised by our colleague Garrett, I understand that it is even more enriching for the process, increasing the reliability levels of all participations.

    I hope to be collaborating with these aspects, bringing a new angle to observe the performance of this remarkable player.
    Thanks Ulisses Patriota, Garrett Holland thanked this post
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  7. 04-05-2020, 04:53 PM
    Quote Originally Posted by Garrett Holland View Post
    "Unless otherwise specified in a game leaderboard variation rule set, the general rule is that all games are to be played with original hardware, with original game software."
    Don't get me wrong, I don't like these multi carts either... But, two things about bringing up this rule set. 1) "Original hardware" went out the window with 3rd party controllers, or controllers like Sega that just happen to work on a 2600. 2) "Original software" would pertain to the code of the game, not the storage media it is on. That is why Everdrives and copied floppies are allowed. Can I prove that a multi cart is the original code unmodified? No. But I can't do that on an Everdrive either, or for that matter a hacked rom written to an EPROM concealed in an original cartridge shell either, unless something is glaringly obvious in the game play and I'm very familiar with that game. Likewise, you have been unable to prove that the game in question in this submission is modified.

    I get what you are saying. I don't like these things either, and I know that there are absolutely some multi carts that butchered original code just to get all the hundreds of games to fit on a cart. But with any other submission here, I think it should be approached with the assumption that the submitter is acting in good faith, unless it can be proven otherwise.
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  8. 04-05-2020, 05:11 PM
    Quote Originally Posted by Snowflake View Post
    In the case of multicarts, consistency would mean rejecting
    Consistency is nice. It means that everyone is treated the same ... the concern for which has been mentioned.

    Quote Originally Posted by Snowflake View Post
    HOWEVER, for some reason, when dealing with anything other than multicarts theres a growing minority that believes all that should matter is the gameplay. if that voice were to win eventually in other areas, then it should apply here to.
    I would think that the time to cross that bridge would be when (and if) we get there, no? As far as the minority that has no problem with third-party manufactured multicarts "growing" ... Not if I can help it.


    I think you said it best in your last paragraph, here --- https://www.twingalaxies.com/pridebu...1#comment46677
  9. 04-05-2020, 05:31 PM
    i see the points of "fault" or "responsiblitiy" being brought up

    a common mistake is to treat adjudication more like a court room than science. there are many differences between justice in law,versus justice in competition, and science

    for law, an unfair law is removed. even though people years ago were unjustfly punished doesnt mean today people should be equally unjustly punished. however in competition, consistency rules the day. so for competition, unlike law, yes, a bad rule needs to apply to all the same.

    as for "fault" or "responsiblity" it doesnt matter whos in the wrong, it just matters if the rules are followed or not. the only time the distinguishment between the player doing something on purpose versus the manufacturer would be for punishments like banning. for banning absolutely it matters if the mistake was in good or bad faith. for acceptance/reject however it is totally irrelevant if it was the manufacturer or the player that introduced any errors.


    again, i'm not weighing in or reject or accept, i just wanna make sure whatever decision made, is made for the right reason
    Lode Runner champ, also, Roy was right
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  10. 04-05-2020, 05:34 PM
    Quote Originally Posted by sdwyer138 View Post
    Don't get me wrong, I don't like these multi carts either... But, two things about bringing up this rule set. 1) "Original hardware" went out the window with 3rd party controllers, or controllers like Sega that just happen to work on a 2600.
    Clones are still not accepted. We still can't submit a NES Classic Dr. Mario score under NES. The Atari Flashback has its own platform. It is demonstrable that one 5-function controller performs the same 5 functions of another 5-function controller sends the same voltage signals to the console processor, so I understand the acceptance of the usage of a third party controller. You can't, however, use a rapid fire controller.

    Quote Originally Posted by sdwyer138 View Post
    2) "Original software" would pertain to the code of the game, not the storage media it is on. That is why Everdrives and copied floppies are allowed. Can I prove that a multi cart is the original code unmodified? No. But I can't do that on an Everdrive either ...
    But you can most certainly prove it with a ROM on an Atari 2600 Harmony Cart, and it is specifically the Atari 2600 that is being discussed here.

    Quote Originally Posted by sdwyer138 View Post
    or for that matter a hacked rom written to an EPROM concealed in an original cartridge shell either, unless something is glaringly obvious in the game play and I'm very familiar with that game.
    The difference is in the consequences. If it were found out that someone used a hacked ROM written to an EPROM concealed in an original cartridge shell, they'd receive a lifetime ban.

    Quote Originally Posted by sdwyer138 View Post
    Likewise, you have been unable to prove that the game in question in this submission is modified.
    I wasn't aware that proving the game in the submission as modified was even a requirement when the evidence in the video clearly demonstrates the use of a third-party manufactured XXX-in-1 cart.

    Quote Originally Posted by sdwyer138 View Post
    I get what you are saying. I don't like these things either, and I know that there are absolutely some multi carts that butchered original code just to get all the hundreds of games to fit on a cart.
    I appreciate that, Sean.

    Quote Originally Posted by sdwyer138 View Post
    But with any other submission here, I think it should be approached with the assumption that the submitter is acting in good faith, unless it can be proven otherwise.
    I could not possibly disagree with the premise of statement any more. By default, I assume that ALL submitters are acting in good faith. If they are *NOT* acting in good faith, it can constitute cheating and if caught, the submitter can receive a lifetime ban.

    In fact, just the OPPOSITE is true. It is PRECISELY because I believe this submitter has acted in good faith that I'm even engaging on this submission. A submitter acting in good faith does not exempt them from the standards that everyone else to-date has had to live by.

    I'm sorry, but this scenario is not one were precedent needs to be set, because if it is, I will demand that TwinGalaxies merge Atari 2600 EMU, Flashback, and other platforms into the main Atari 2600 platform, as well as Merge Playstation 2, 3, and 4 under Playstation, and merge NES Classic with NES. After all, there's no discernible difference in gameplay for *most* games in these scenarios ... right?
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