Xbox - Battle Engine Aquila - PAL - Episode 2.11 - Assault On Apollo - Fastest Victory - 02:17.0 - Kyle Nelson

Is this Performance Claim Valid?

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  1. 08-12-2020, 01:04 PM
    I can't believe there is no difference in the two Space Gun comparisons!? I understand my camera recording at the same speed, but I can clearly hear/see and notice the input lag on Space Gun when I play the games on their respective settings. How can they both still be playing at NTSC speed? I'm not doubting you, I'm just trying to understand how this works and if I simply can't do speed runs with it. I have both versions of the game Taito Legends, and they both operate on either settings even cross region. While I understand that's not allowed, it still does work for this game. Cross region for Tiger Woods the game won't even boot up.

    The title sequence for Space Gun on PAL video settings starts at 4:15.58/.62 (first letters that appear after the black screen) on my stopwatch and ends at 5:01.52 when the first "A" appears on the word Awakened for a total of 45.94s. The second PAL comparison for Space Gun title sequence starts at 1:52.17 (first letters that appear after the black screen) and ends at 2:38.06ish when the first "A" appears on the word Awakened for a total of 45.89. So almost exactly the same whether it's cross region or not.

    The title sequence for Space Gun on NTSC video settings starts at 8:05.68 (first appearance of letters after the black screen) and ends at 8:43.99 for a total of 38.31. Second test starts at 9:46.60 and ends at 10:24.87 for a total of 38.27. If I use the time converter to compare to the PAL times it's 38.31 x 1.2 for a total of 45.97. Almost exactly as the first test run.

    Of course this is using a start/stop method using youtube so it's not going to be quite as accurate. So how can they still be NTSC speed when watching it on the video they are clearly different? I literally don't get it and NEED help, haha.
  2. 08-12-2020, 01:04 PM
    https://www.youtube.com/watch?time_c...ture=emb_title

    Here is the video with all this testing being done on it.
  3. 08-12-2020, 11:37 PM
    Quote Originally Posted by thegamer1185 View Post
    I can't believe there is no difference in the two Space Gun comparisons!? I understand my camera recording at the same speed, but I can clearly hear/see and notice the input lag on Space Gun when I play the games on their respective settings. How can they both still be playing at NTSC speed? I'm not doubting you, I'm just trying to understand how this works and if I simply can't do speed runs with it. I have both versions of the game Taito Legends, and they both operate on either settings even cross region. While I understand that's not allowed, it still does work for this game. Cross region for Tiger Woods the game won't even boot up.

    The title sequence for Space Gun on PAL video settings starts at 4:15.58/.62 (first letters that appear after the black screen) on my stopwatch and ends at 5:01.52 when the first "A" appears on the word Awakened for a total of 45.94s. The second PAL comparison for Space Gun title sequence starts at 1:52.17 (first letters that appear after the black screen) and ends at 2:38.06ish when the first "A" appears on the word Awakened for a total of 45.89. So almost exactly the same whether it's cross region or not.

    The title sequence for Space Gun on NTSC video settings starts at 8:05.68 (first appearance of letters after the black screen) and ends at 8:43.99 for a total of 38.31. Second test starts at 9:46.60 and ends at 10:24.87 for a total of 38.27. If I use the time converter to compare to the PAL times it's 38.31 x 1.2 for a total of 45.97. Almost exactly as the first test run.

    Of course this is using a start/stop method using youtube so it's not going to be quite as accurate. So how can they still be NTSC speed when watching it on the video they are clearly different? I literally don't get it and NEED help, haha.
    As I mentioned in my above comment, I had a skim check while eating my breakfast & rushed out the door for work. I'm in the same position again today: not enough for me to check with any detail. Simple question is does the video present 30 frames of action from the game or does it present 25 frames of action from the game. A PAL game only runs at 25 FPS so cannot generate 30 frames of game action like your submission video here presents.
    Lots of 1sts to be surpassed: what are you waiting for? Play the game, submit the score...
  4. 08-13-2020, 06:09 AM
    Quote Originally Posted by Barthax View Post
    As I mentioned in my above comment, I had a skim check while eating my breakfast & rushed out the door for work. I'm in the same position again today: not enough for me to check with any detail. Simple question is does the video present 30 frames of action from the game or does it present 25 frames of action from the game. A PAL game only runs at 25 FPS so cannot generate 30 frames of game action like your submission video here presents.
    I have no idea, haha. I'll let you break it down when you have the time.
  5. 10-26-2020, 11:44 AM
    excuse me if i'm not understanding the technicals but it sounds like you're both saying different things

    barthax seems focused on fps, which to my understanding is how we define pal, and is stating (with no denials from kyle) that its running at the fps for ntsc

    kyles point seems more thats its functionally equivalent to ntsc in that, different frames or not, theres no real difference since the game events happen at the same time (i'd interject it can never truly be the same since one might 1 60*59=3540th of a second faster or slower).

    intellivision pal and ntsc are merged because they run functionally equivalent, but they also state as much as in the rules. this track however expliclity states pal

    if i'm understanding both of you, i'd have to agree with barthax and basically say that if kyle is also right then this track wasnt really created properly, it shouldve been created to explictly allow both, but now that it is made like this we're stuck with it and need to follow the rules.

    i'll wait a few days for comments before clicking reject myself
    Lode Runner Champion
  6. 10-26-2020, 01:07 PM
    There are many rejected submissions for the PAL version of this game because when Don initially played it, he was playing it at 60Hz. He then went back and played them all again at the required 50Hz. It is easy to verify that it is 50Hz when showing the settings. In this case the BIOS is not the original Xbox BIOS and the 50Hz/60Hz frame rate selection is apparently not an option. The not original BIOS would immediately disqualify this submission from my point of view but for some reason this is actually being accepted by some people even though it's not original hardware. Actually when the BIOS is changed I wouldn't even consider this an Xbox.

    In every PAL Xbox submission I've seen, there is a start up in the video showing the not 60Hz setting, which is the standard PAL frame rate of 50Hz.

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    This might be a moot point since there are new submissions and I think Kyle says that these older submissions are actually NTSC.

    Kyle, can you confirm this is NTSC and comment on any other outstanding submissions that are actually NTSC?
  7. 10-26-2020, 04:53 PM
    I'm saying that this game is one of those games that appears to run at the "optimal" speed no matter the region played on. I guess Xbox made several games that way (I've tried finding a list to confirm this but can't). I discovered that was a thing researching my Xbox.

    What I am saying is that I have tested my Xbox playing a game from PAL region on my PAL video settings, and NTSC region game on NTSC settings. I then compared the opening sequences of that game with one another as well as some gameplay. The NTSC game played much faster than the PAL game on their respective settings, as it should. Using the conversion rates formula, NTSC to PAL is multiply your time by .8 and PAL to NTSC is multiply by 1.2, the times for the opening sequences came out to match exactly as they should. So the timing aspect IMO are playing exactly as they should and all is well. That test video was submitted using a Tiger Woods submissions where I posted a 0 if you want to see the testing I did.

    I strongly believe that a modded Xbox using this type of switching is doing exactly as it should for the respective region it's set too. I've even tried seeing if I could play cross region, PAL game on NTSC video settings and NTSC game on PAL video settings, and NONE of them worked properly at all. Video was insanely out of sync with the sound or it wouldn't even load. Battle Engine Aquila doesn't seem to care because I believe it's a game designed to the play the same on either region, or the "optimal" speed. I've asked many Xbox modding sites and they all agree that this mod is accurate to how it should play on whatever region you have it set on. That's all I can say. The only way for any of you to confirm or counter this is to get a modded XBox yourselves and check my findings. It's worth it, trust me!!

    As for modded consoles being allowed, there are thousands of submissions accepted in the database that use modded consoles so the fact my Xbox has a mod in it is moot at this point. You can argue they shouldn't be allowed, I'm just saying that argument seems to have been settled thousands of submissions ago.
  8. 10-26-2020, 05:07 PM
    I need to make myself very clear, I have no idea about all the technicalities of this stuff. I can only give you what I have seen and done. If anyone can confirm what I'm saying is right or wrong, I will absolutely agree with them:) I can't argue Barthax because I have no idea what he really said and I know he knows way more about it than me. I saw this game, started playing it, liked it, submitted to it. Assumed my Xbox was doing what it was supposed to do when I changed the video settings. That pretty much sums up this whole thing for me. I've done some videos for someone to analyze/compare things of how my Xbox is actually working. Wish I knew more about this stuff but I don't.
  9. 10-26-2020, 05:41 PM
    the issue for me isnt that what you say is right or wrong but rather that it appears to be irrelevant. in all your statements you never said how many frames per second you're playing at. anything else i'll take your word for. i'll assume its all true but compltley irrelevant unless of course you can explain why its relevant.

    whats "optimal" or what other sites do, or anything like that i can see why people would care about those things but those things dont seem to counter barthax claims that you're playing at 60 fps. as long as you're playing at 60 fps and the track requires pal then you're in violation
    Lode Runner Champion
  10. 10-26-2020, 05:52 PM
    That's what I'm saying, I know nothing about nor do I care about what a game plays like. I just play the games. I don't have any tools to show FPS or any such tools to even see it. I don't think what I'm saying is irrelevant, it's what I have to go off. I've done videos, showed my Xbox and the settings it can do, I'm done some timed things and they come out as they should from what I found, I've asked other communities about it, relayed that information here at some point in one of these many threads, and that's it. If it's all about FPS, I can't defend anything I say because I don't know where to start with that stuff. I know 60 FPS is NTSC and PAL is 50 FPS, but I'm not going to buy software to prove that's what all my submissions run at. I only made these submissions again after I showed all of that stuff that nobody disputed so I figured all the stuff I did was good enough to resubmit them. I'm all good how this goes, I'm all for someone saying I can't use this Xbox for PAL submissions because it's not 100% accurate if they prove it. Otherwise, I'm just playing this like other people who have played cross region using modded consoles.

    I was actually all for not allowing manually timed runs on modded consoles and accepting all other scores on modded consoles for this exact reason. I don't care one way or the other, I'm just tired of arguing the same argument while others play on modded consoles and nothing is said about it. All good, no offense taken on my end, it's a TG thing.
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