Dispute: Ryan Genno - Nintendo Game Cube - Namco Museum - NTSC - Pac-Attack [Hyper Mode - Points] - Player: Matthew Felix - Score: 1,208,858

Is this a valid dispute?

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  1. 09-10-2020, 10:50 PM
    From what I've seen, some consoles require showing the console at startup with external camera while others don't. The nes and Atari seem to require external camera. The Wii seems to be a console that doesn't require console to be shone. I thought this was due to the unique startup and menu system of the Wii, and that there was no emulator that would replicate this. Although doing a web search, there now appears to be a Wii emulator with the same menu system so I don't know...

    If someone beat one of my scores with direct capture when I provided external camera footage, I wouldn't be very happy about it either.

    It doesn't take looking at many records on speedrun.com to observe that the site has been overrun by scores using emulators where save states are obviously being used, and the evidence is a direct capture video. It would be sad to see Twin Galaxies devolve into having the same problem. It doesn't seem to be a problem on TG, yet, but allowing widespread direct capture runs very likely could lead to the beginning of having that same problem on TG.
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  2. 09-11-2020, 03:31 AM
    Again I'm sorry dude and I don't wanna start a fight either but I do want to start a discussion on this issue at least. Usually as of late I tried to show the controller more in my recent videos to show more proof and leave no stone unturned, so maybe I didn't early on but I'm starting to do it a lot more now including all my current ones. I also show the console as well so I don't say I'm using a emulator or third party system like a retron 5, seeing the boot up screen here is good but it feels incomplete.
    Quote Originally Posted by starcrytas View Post
    So even I'm not immune to having a score disputed.

    Anyways, I don't want to start a fight, but you, Ryan, didn't make valid arguments to defend yourself.

    1. Console and controller never shown
    I've had 100's of direct capture scores accepted the same way this Pac-Attack score was done. You could see early in the videos the Wii booting up from the blue screen to the Wii Menu. That's how my capture card captures it. As for the controller, you don't even show it on most of your submissions, or at least from the ones I watch from start to finish even though you use a camera. Why do I have to show it if you don't?

    2. Two: to load the game here it was from an unlicensed Wii Channel and not the real disc itself. The issue here it's possible to load different programs which could include official and unreleased games.
    Everdrives have the same issue, they aren't licensed or officially made by Nintendo or Sega and they can load modded games, cheats, you name it! I'm sure there's a way to check that the Namco Museum ISO is not tampered with, but you can see the scoring works correctly, no cosmetic changes (colors are the same), and I don't have any play advantage.

    Here is Dave Hawksett's quote about allowing jailbroken consoles.
    "We have also had an internal discussion and will allow submissions on 'jailbroken' consoles in which the game play is identical to the original."
    https://www.twingalaxies.com/showthr...l=1#post955072
    -Ohya, baby! I'm the first ever dude on the planet to get a documented PERFECT score on Bonk's Adventure!
    I also have a high score on Alfred Chicken.... yeah, not as good.
    http://videogames101.com
    or http://www.youtube.com/user/starsoldier1
  3. 09-11-2020, 03:50 AM
    Quote Originally Posted by Bogart View Post
    It doesn't take looking at many records on speedrun.com to observe that the site has been overrun by scores using emulators where save states are obviously being used, and the evidence is a direct capture video. It would be sad to see Twin Galaxies devolve into having the same problem. It doesn't seem to be a problem on TG, yet, but allowing widespread direct capture runs very likely could lead to the beginning of having that same problem on TG.
    Direct capture has been accepted by TG for some consoles for decades, even before Speerdun exhisted.

    Emulators are accepted in speedrun.com and I really seriously doubt that the site is overrun with games using save states, at least for the popular games, I'm sure the experts over there are able to spot this kind of stuff.
    Daniel Ocampo
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  4. 09-11-2020, 04:03 AM
    Quote Originally Posted by starsoldier1 View Post
    Again I'm sorry dude and I don't wanna start a fight either but I do want to start a discussion on this issue at least.
    The discussion on this "issue" has taken place many, many, many times and the outcome is always the same: For some platforms, direct capture is completely fine.
    Daniel Ocampo
    Tomena Sanner
    Champion and JJT lover (not in that way).
  5. 09-11-2020, 10:05 AM
    Quote Originally Posted by Pixe Sukola View Post
    The discussion on this "issue" has taken place many, many, many times and the outcome is always the same: For some platforms, direct capture is completely fine.
    correct, not for some platforms, for some adjudicators.

    the de facto "rules" of showing system came from just some adjudicators arbitrarilly making rules and plenty of us not seeing as worth fighting over. again its not a real rule, its not platform based, other than those adjudicators tend to focus on particular platforms. its not a rule for any platform and isnt grounds for removal for any platform. its just something some voters have insisted on
    Lode Runner Champion
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  6. 09-15-2020, 04:23 PM
    Quote Originally Posted by Pixe Sukola View Post
    Direct capture has been accepted by TG for some consoles for decades, even before Speerdun exhisted.

    Emulators are accepted in speedrun.com and I really seriously doubt that the site is overrun with games using save states, at least for the popular games, I'm sure the experts over there are able to spot this kind of stuff.
    Speedrun probably isn't the best example to use as a positive comparison. I know for a fact they don't scrutunize records before they accept them and list them on the leaderboard ... including my own. I can guarantee that at least 10-20% of their listed records are inaccurate.
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  7. 09-15-2020, 04:56 PM
    Quote Originally Posted by Garrett Holland View Post
    Speedrun probably isn't the best example to use as a positive comparison. I know for a fact they don't scrutunize records before they accept them and list them on the leaderboard ... including my own. I can guarantee that at least 10-20% of their listed records are inaccurate.
    Every game has different people reviewing and accepting the scores over there and they are usually experts in that particular game. I myself am in charge of reviewing and accepting or rejecting scores for Tenchu Shadow Assasins and Excitebike World Rally and I can guarantee you that I always try my best to do a good adjudication, so I don't think it's fair to just say "THEY don't scrutinize records".

    And I absolutely believe that there are fake runs in those leaderboards just like in Cyberscore or Twin Galaxies. I agree with you that probably a 10% of records are fake or cheated somehow and that's a reasonable percentage to me, nothing to be very worried about. I also believe that the vast majority of those runs are in leaderboards that are not very popular and really nobody cares about those games. I'm sure there aren't many or any fake runs in the top 10 of Super Mario Bros or Tetris for example. There is a reason even Jace asked for help from the experts at SR in the Rodrigo Zelda's case.

    I love TG and I submit 90% of my scores here before anywhere else, I'm just saying SR is not as bad as some people may believe, it is a great site just like this one. I disagree with the moderator of Super Mario Kart over there, we had a few arguments and I decided to not submit any of my SMK records there. The Tetris moderators, completely different story, very helpful and polite.
    Daniel Ocampo
    Tomena Sanner
    Champion and JJT lover (not in that way).
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  8. 09-15-2020, 08:09 PM
    Quote Originally Posted by Pixe Sukola View Post
    I agree with you that probably a 10% of records are fake or cheated somehow and that's a reasonable percentage to me
    ... or just inaccurate, as every single one of my accepted runs are there, as is every other time on the leaderboards for each of the games I submitted to. They are 100% inaccurate ... all of them (not necessarily cheated or fake, just inaccurate), and the 20% estimate for the entire site was actually giving Speedrun the benefit of the doubt. It would not surprise me if it were much MUCH higher.

    Quote Originally Posted by Pixe Sukola
    I love TG and I submit 90% of my scores here before anywhere else, I'm just saying SR is not as bad as some people may believe, it is a great site just like this one. I disagree with the moderator of Super Mario Kart over there, we had a few arguments and I decided to not submit any of my SMK records there. The Tetris moderators, completely different story, very helpful and polite.
    That has been my experience there ... a total dice roll. I still love the site, but I don't take one bit of any of it seriously. If my first thought when having an unbiased, fresh look at any site's leaderboard is, "Yeah ... I don't believe any of it", then it is likely a serious optics and credibility problem on that site's end. Just my opinion.
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  9. 09-15-2020, 08:13 PM
    For the record, I've been a member of Speedrun *much* longer than I've been here.
  10. 09-15-2020, 08:14 PM
    this is actually a really interesting tangent i wonder if it deserves its own thread. I had a great experience with intellivision at speedrun, i was under the impression (apparently false) that it enjoyed signficantly more respect than TG.

    i will say, regardless of how great any other site is, TG is NOT a rubber stamp for other sites. I dont think being accepted anywhere else, or procedures use anywhere else in any way mean we have to accept such methods here. If the method or score really is good, then an argument directly in favor of it should suffice, if the other site made such a great choice, then surely a good defense of that choice exists without having to invoke the sites name.

    if a method is acceptable, but it can only be defended by the experts on the other site, yet the only defense here is 'well those experts do it' well then maybe thats a method only the experts there can execute properly and we arent ready for it yet.
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