Emulation Submission Rejected: Down-Vote by High-Cred TG Member Duped by False Advertising

  1. Emulation Submission Rejected: Down-Vote by High-Cred TG Member Duped by False Advertising

    11-25-2020, 07:53 AM
    Hello, everyone. I'm new here.

    So, anyway, my first performance submission was rejected (and my credibility lowered) because I did it in emulation and submitted it under the emulation thread.

    You read that correctly.

    Here is the thread:
    https://www.twingalaxies.com/showthread.php/222891

    You see, I achieved the score on a Mega Sg, a clone console that emulates a Mega Drive, and the company that manufacture and sell these consoles, Analogue, advertise this console as not being emulation, which is illogical nonsense; and a high-credibility member here was unfortunately duped by this false advertising, and he thus down-voted my claim, which ultimately resulted in its being rejected. (I have no hard feelings towards this member because of this—I understand his reasoning, despite its being flawed.)

    While this did bother me, it didn't surprise me because I know many people are susceptible to false advertising. In fact, a lot of advertising is false, but many people unthinkingly lap it up.

    An Analogue Mega Sg copies the behaviour of a Sega Mega Drive; an Analogue Mega Sg acts as though it is a Sega Mega Drive; an Analogue Mega Sg pretends to be a Sega Mega Drive: this is what emulation means. It makes no difference how the Mega Sg emulates the Mega Drive or whether or not it actually does so with 100% accuracy (I doubt it—I bet its latest firmware still has accuracy-lowering bugs in it), it is still emulation.

    Now, it seems silly to me to have separate categories for clone systems because, in regards to accuracy, there can be greater differences between two different PC emulators or two different clone systems than there can be between a PC emulator and a clone system.

    Ought there not to be just two categories here: (1) original hardware and (2) emulation (software emulation on a PC, hardware emulation/clone systems, etc.)?
    Last edited by SJP176; 11-25-2020 at 08:06 AM. Reason: Clarity
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  2. 11-25-2020, 03:56 PM
    while i personally would like to see people allowed to submit anything other than original to emulaion, thats currently not how it goes. who knows, maybe some day. but this is standard right now the emu pretty much just means running an emulator on your pc. so i do totally see where you're coming from and would agree with a push to change things, but at the same you cant confuse your vision of how things should be (a vision i share) with how they are. You were informed this wasnt acceptable, and kept your vote (wrong vote by todays standards) regardless. I'd suggegst if you care about your credibilty to be more aware that some times adjudication isnt as simple as one would think, and in complex case perhaps you should abstain, especailly on your own submission where lets face it, we're all a little biased on our own submission.
    Lode Runner Champion
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  3. 11-25-2020, 05:34 PM
    Quote Originally Posted by FBX View Post
    Side note: Your attempt to slander me and stalk my followers on Twitter has backfired BADLY. You asked me a question and I answered it with facts. You then insulted me out of the blue when it didn't fit with what you wanted to hear. That's how you got blocked. Now you're stalking my followers with your insanity. As far as I'm concerned, your credibility should be ZERO.
    FBX, this thread here on Twin Galaxies has nothing whatsoever to do with our argument on Twitter. (You have ironically stalked me here, and it was you who began slandering me on Twitter.)

    Please leave me alone.
  4. 11-25-2020, 05:37 PM
    Quote Originally Posted by Snowflake View Post
    while i personally would like to see people allowed to submit anything other than original to emulaion, thats currently not how it goes. who knows, maybe some day. but this is standard right now the emu pretty much just means running an emulator on your pc. so i do totally see where you're coming from and would agree with a push to change things, but at the same you cant confuse your vision of how things should be (a vision i share) with how they are. You were informed this wasnt acceptable, and kept your vote (wrong vote by todays standards) regardless. I'd suggegst if you care about your credibilty to be more aware that some times adjudication isnt as simple as one would think, and in complex case perhaps you should abstain, especailly on your own submission where lets face it, we're all a little biased on our own submission.
    No problem, man. I understand. Thanks.
  5. 11-25-2020, 06:33 PM
    Honestly, we need a judgement call from @Jace Hall or @TWIN GALAXIES ... is FPGA technology going to be considered (for the sake of adjudication) emulation or hardware? At least then, the wiki can be updated and people will know (or can find out) where to submit for each platform.

    You all probably know my stance - FPGA is the future of our hobby, and the sooner we embrace it "as good as original", the better. @SJP176 your submission is definitely more accurate to hardware then loading up gens or any software emu on a PC that has fluctuating CPU/RAM between each submitter/submission.

    Speedrun.com has runs on the same track from MiSTer and FPGA systems like RetroUSB's AVS and Analogue's systems all mixed with emu and hardware on the same leaderboard for a reason. When FPGA implementation is done properly, they are so close to hardware (like 99%+) that on a competitive playing playing field it just doesn't make sense to separate them. Are all NES Ricoh 2A03 cpu's performing exactly the same 30+ years later? I'd put my money on an Analogue NT Mini running closer to original spec.

    As a fail safe - If any difference is found that effects the way a game scores (or speed differences to fastest completion tracks), it can always be disputed at a later point.
  6. 11-25-2020, 06:59 PM
    Quote Originally Posted by HAN View Post
    Honestly, we need a judgement call from @Jace Hall or @TWIN GALAXIES ... is FPGA technology going to be considered (for the sake of adjudication) emulation or hardware? At least then, the wiki can be updated and people will know (or can find out) where to submit for each platform.

    You all probably know my stance - FPGA is the future of our hobby, and the sooner we embrace it "as good as original", the better. @SJP176 your submission is definitely more accurate to hardware then loading up gens or any software emu on a PC that has fluctuating CPU/RAM between each submitter/submission.

    Speedrun.com has runs on the same track from MiSTer and FPGA systems like RetroUSB's AVS and Analogue's systems all mixed with emu and hardware on the same leaderboard for a reason. When FPGA implementation is done properly, they are so close to hardware (like 99%+) that on a competitive playing playing field it just doesn't make sense to separate them. Are all NES Ricoh 2A03 cpu's performing exactly the same 30+ years later? I'd put my money on an Analogue NT Mini running closer to original spec.

    As a fail safe - If any difference is found that effects the way a game scores (or speed differences to fastest completion tracks), it can always be disputed at a later point.
    This is a sound argument you make. Yes, I can understand that a console more than 30 years old may not perform now exactly as it did when it was brand new because of degraded components such as CPU, RAM, and other ICs and components. There could even be minor performance differences between old consoles of the same type because of their age. Thus a clone console with very high accuracy could actually emulate an original console as it was when it was new with greater accuracy than an old original console can "emulate" one, so to speak.

    Semantically, this is still "emulation", though it's just a language problem in regards to categorisation.

    I can see sound reasoning from both sides of this argument, so it's something that needs some consideration, eh.
    Last edited by SJP176; 11-25-2020 at 07:09 PM. Reason: Clarity
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  7. 11-25-2020, 07:19 PM
    Quote Originally Posted by HAN View Post
    Honestly, we need a judgement call from @Jace Hall or @TWIN GALAXIES ... is FPGA technology going to be considered (for the sake of adjudication) emulation or hardware? At least then, the wiki can be updated and people will know (or can find out) where to submit for each platform.

    You all probably know my stance - FPGA is the future of our hobby, and the sooner we embrace it "as good as original", the better. @SJP176 your submission is definitely more accurate to hardware then loading up gens or any software emu on a PC that has fluctuating CPU/RAM between each submitter/submission.

    Speedrun.com has runs on the same track from MiSTer and FPGA systems like RetroUSB's AVS and Analogue's systems all mixed with emu and hardware on the same leaderboard for a reason. When FPGA implementation is done properly, they are so close to hardware (like 99%+) that on a competitive playing playing field it just doesn't make sense to separate them. Are all NES Ricoh 2A03 cpu's performing exactly the same 30+ years later? I'd put my money on an Analogue NT Mini running closer to original spec.

    As a fail safe - If any difference is found that effects the way a game scores (or speed differences to fastest completion tracks), it can always be disputed at a later point.
    I will have time over the next few days to go over everything TG - but in the meanwhile, the thought was to simply set up FPGA as its own generalized platform which would be all inclusive of games played using that technology.

    I had asked for a list of FPGA platforms that people want initially included underneath the master category (think of how MAME versions are handled), but I do not think I got much response. I'll have to look and see what is there.

    While I agree that eventually original hardware will become more and more scarce, and FPGA can theoretically "match" original hardware in terms of program execution - which leads it toward being the future of the arcade hobby, there will still be some hurdles to clear in regard to whether or not people will consider them to be "the same."

    Imagine an FPGA version of the arcade version of Donkey Kong. Imagine someone gets a 1.3MM on such a platform. Would it be regarded as same or equal to original hardware by the community? I am unsure.

    Anyway, I agree that this is a real issue to be examined and considered with detail and attention.

    Over the next few days I will be catching up on all this and other TG items.

    Thank you!
    Jace Hall
    Head Custodian
    www.TwinGalaxies.com
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  8. 11-25-2020, 08:24 PM
    You are a new Twin Galaxies member I am glad you brought something that will help Twin Galaxies site is good news.

    A question to you Stuart Patton surely you were not talking about me, as a ruleI never vote no unless the submitter of the video game submission ask TG members to vote no.

    Stuart Patton stated:Emulation Submission Rejected: Down-Vote by High-Cred TG Member Duped by False Advertising

    As you can clearly see here below is my reply at the time you had only the streaming on Youtube before I gave you information aboput Twin Galaxies requirement to all Twin Galaxies to upload directly to Twin Galaxies and that TG could help you upload to Twin Galaxies. You were a new TG member and did not I help you.

    I never came back to adjudicate your video game submission but when I did it was voted on quickly and rejected. I have adjudicated over 27,000 of Twin Galaxies members video game submissions.

    And for the record I am all for FPGA technology but it is not my call it befall sthe owner @Jace Hall @admin staff
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    Quote Originally Posted by SJP176 View Post
    Hello, everyone. I'm new here.

    So, anyway, my first performance submission was rejected (and my credibility lowered) because I did it in emulation and submitted it under the emulation thread.

    You read that correctly.

    Here is the thread:
    https://www.twingalaxies.com/showthread.php/222891

    You see, I achieved the score on a Mega Sg, a clone console that emulates a Mega Drive, and the company that manufacture and sell these consoles, Analogue, advertise this console as not being emulation, which is illogical nonsense; and a high-credibility member here was unfortunately duped by this false advertising, and he thus down-voted my claim, which ultimately resulted in its being rejected. (I have no hard feelings towards this member because of this—I understand his reasoning, despite its being flawed.)

    While this did bother me, it didn't surprise me because I know many people are susceptible to false advertising. In fact, a lot of advertising is false, but many people unthinkingly lap it up.

    An Analogue Mega Sg copies the behaviour of a Sega Mega Drive; an Analogue Mega Sg acts as though it is a Sega Mega Drive; an Analogue Mega Sg pretends to be a Sega Mega Drive: this is what emulation means. It makes no difference how the Mega Sg emulates the Mega Drive or whether or not it actually does so with 100% accuracy (I doubt it—I bet its latest firmware still has accuracy-lowering bugs in it), it is still emulation.

    Now, it seems silly to me to have separate categories for clone systems because, in regards to accuracy, there can be greater differences between two different PC emulators or two different clone systems than there can be between a PC emulator and a clone system.

    Ought there not to be just two categories here: (1) original hardware and (2) emulation (software emulation on a PC, hardware emulation/clone systems, etc.)?
    Last edited by JJT_Defender; 11-25-2020 at 08:27 PM.
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  9. 11-25-2020, 08:50 PM
    Quote Originally Posted by JJT_Defender View Post
    You are a new Twin Galaxies member I am glad you brought something that will help Twin Galaxies site is good news.

    A question to you Stuart Patton surely you were not talking about me, as a ruleI never vote no unless the submitter of the video game submission ask TG members to vote no.

    Stuart Patton stated:Emulation Submission Rejected: Down-Vote by High-Cred TG Member Duped by False Advertising

    As you can clearly see here below is my reply at the time you had only the streaming on Youtube before I gave you information aboput Twin Galaxies requirement to all Twin Galaxies to upload directly to Twin Galaxies and that TG could help you upload to Twin Galaxies. You were a new TG member and did not I help you.

    I never came back to adjudicate your video game submission but when I did it was voted on quickly and rejected. I have adjudicated over 27,000 of Twin Galaxies members video game submissions.

    And for the record I am all for FPGA technology but it is not my call it befall sthe owner @Jace Hall @admin staff
    Name:  image.png
Views: 119
Size:  88.9 KB
    Hello there, man. No, I wasn't talking about you.

    But, again, I have no problem with anyone pertaining to the rejection of this first submission of mine. It did bother me, but I understand why it was rejected. It wasn't even the top score in the track. I submitted it only to find out how the process works, and when it was rejected, I thought I'd post about it in this forum to share my thoughts on it and show the frustration of a noob's not getting things right here at TG.
  10. 11-26-2020, 03:27 AM
    I help new Twin Galaxies members because the some veteran TG members do not until they are here for ahwile. That is life in general.
    Quote Originally Posted by SJP176 View Post
    Hello there, man. No, I wasn't talking about you.

    But, again, I have no problem with anyone pertaining to the rejection of this first submission of mine. It did bother me, but I understand why it was rejected. It wasn't even the top score in the track. I submitted it only to find out how the process works, and when it was rejected, I thought I'd post about it in this forum to share my thoughts on it and show the frustration of a noob's not getting things right here at TG.
    JJTJohnnyLightning World #1 Racer on Arcade Game Fast & Furious Super Cars 1,872 Match Wins 52Cities
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