- Jason Newman

  1. - Jason Newman

    03-10-2016, 03:07 AM
    Well well well... I'm afraid I have some really bad news for anyone who has submitted mod chip submissions in the past and had them accepted or is thinking to try and make an attempt to do a record with a mod chip, perhaps even an ever drive type device.

    As some of you know I've been trying to get all the Ridge Racer records on TG recently and I've had to use a PAL console with a mod chip for the NTSC runs. Well, I had provided some good evidence and to my knowledge all seemed well... Until I bought myself a Go Pro which is capable of 60 FPS... I've just done some frame by frame analysis of some new footage with the game running on an emulator and also on my mod chipped PS1.

    To be sure the emulator version was running at the correct speed I used a frame rate counter on the emulator which was locked at a steady 30fps throughout the entire thing. Both were running the same disc image from a genuine NTSC disk (my own disk) and even running the same audio track.

    The results are surprising...!



    Basically at 21 seconds in i go frame by frame for the counter on each game i wait for the emulator to drop first then count the difference between the 2. This turns out to be 6 frames difference between the 2 to start with, this is fine and as expected as i can never press the start button on both at the exact same time. Now we get to the counter almost hitting zero at 1:09 & this turns out to be 45 frames until the timer changes down on the mod chipped console. There is a 39 frame difference between the start of the timer (60 seconds) down to 8 seconds which in simple terms means the mod chipped console is running slower than NTSC should be running even though the refresh rate is running at 60hz. This is a huge difference in time but to the naked eye or a normal camera without frame by frame analysis would go completely unnoticed.

    Upon further investigation it seems that this issue is down to the oscillator crystal. All consoles have these and it turns out PAL consoles and NTSC consoles have slightly different Mhz rates on their oscillator crystals. This leads to an incorrect speed. This will effect any console using a mod chip and possibly even ever drives/soft mods etc (i say possibly as i cannot test this myself but it seems VERY likely this would effect ever drive/soft mod too).

    I am withdrawing my submissions currently pending (thankfully all my NTSC runs are still pending).

    Reject them here and get yourself some tastey submission points: https://www.twingalaxies.com/showthre...Please!/page34

    http://www.earlyaeroplanes.com/archi...3/imag1753.jpg
    Last edited by rotunda; 03-10-2016 at 03:45 AM.
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  2. 03-10-2016, 04:13 AM
    Excellent information & the crystal is the reason the European TurboGrafx-16 is slower than the US TurboGrax-16 even though they have the same CPU & other hardware throughout the main console (European TurboGrafx-16s come with an external signal converter also - dunno about US versions). Very commendable activity throughout the submission process. :)

    I would say there's no information here that affects Everdrive & other external units: the crystal is unaffected inside the console by such units.
    Last edited by Barthax; 03-10-2016 at 04:18 AM.
    Lots of 1sts to be surpassed: what are you waiting for? Play the game, submit the score...
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  3. 03-10-2016, 04:42 AM
    I would say there's no information here that affects Everdrive & other external units: the crystal is unaffected inside the console by such units.
    Are you sure though? As an ever drive to my knowledge is only there to supply ROM's to the actual machine's CPU/RAM. If you run an NTSC ROM on a PAL machine or vise versa the crystal will still effect game play. The ever drive is simply providing the ROM data to be used by the system not controlling the speed of the ROM being played. If you are running the same ROM region as the machine there should be no issues but I think it's worth taking note of.

    This can apply to any means of supplying ROM's to a system or playing other regions. It needs to be same game region for the same system region which I know is already loosely used as a rule here but now we have the proof we need to make this fact and set in stone.

    All mod chip submissions which have previously been accepted need to be removed as they are totally invalid. This includes my own pending submissions which i have already requested to be rejected.

    This finally puts to rest the long, lingering question if mod chips can be accepted. The fact is, no! I will leave that video up for future reference by TG should this question ever arise again in the future.

    Luckily I've already ordered a proper NTSC PSone slim so i can do the NTSC records properly soon.
    Last edited by rotunda; 03-10-2016 at 04:48 AM.
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  4. 03-10-2016, 06:17 AM
    This is neat because it actually shows an advantage of the new system rather than a failing. We tried something, it didnt work out, new data came in, and it was dealt with. This of course depending on two things (1)a diligent submitter (2) even when the mod was believe to be acceptable it was still fully disclosed. This is real reminder just how import such disclosures are.
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  5. 03-10-2016, 06:27 AM
    This does make one potential problem for users of all mods, even ones currently believed to be good. Jace has let us know that we can take an "innocent till proven guilty" approach, and if in the future problems are found the scores can be removed with no penalty to the adjudicators. The case here however, where the problem was found mid-adjudication was not explictily covered by jace. I sincerely hope the credibility of those who accepted will be unharmed and I would appreciate an official response. If credibility does take a ding though, it would make me afraid to ever accept any mod, even an everdrive on the offchance a problem will be found mid-adjudication and i'll be dinged for not changing my vote quickly enough
  6. 03-10-2016, 06:58 AM
    This is neat because it actually shows an advantage of the new system rather than a failing. We tried something, it didnt work out, new data came in, and it was dealt with.
    Definitely and i hope it helps answer any questions in the future, like i said I will keep that video up for good so that it can be used as proof against such submissions in the future. If anyone wants to, they can download the video and use it as they wish I hereby give permission to do so, so that this evidence can help others in the future.

    I think the Ever Drive issue needs to be looked into as I can see it causing the exact same issue. If i owned one i would run a test but i don't.

    I pride myself in being as open and honest as possible regarding submissions. As soon as i realized there was an issue I requested them to be pulled down. It was at complete random that I even worked it out. I wanted to test my Go Pro in 60 fps mode and thought why not use it as further evidence for my submissions. It turns out that when analysed at 60 fps, frame but frame you can clearly see a difference. I was shocked and I'm so glad I did it.

    I sincerely hope the credibility of those who accepted will be unharmed and I would appreciate an official response.
    I totally agree, I did not expect those submissions i made to close in 3 hours after requesting a reject. They have been lingering at the bottom of the table for 4 or 5 days now so once i found this issue with mod chips I thought it would take long enough to actually be properly rejected that most (hopefully all) of the people who voted accept would be able to change their vote(s). I made a point to post in every thread to try and make people aware. I was even going to PM people who commented but even if i had the 3 hour window is not long enough given the differences in time zones etc. The fact I'm in the UK and most of you are in the US makes it even worse.

    I would like to request all that lost CR from my submissions get their CR back. Hell, take mine and give it to them if need be as it's very unfair that this has happened to them.
  7. 03-10-2016, 07:14 AM
    Quote Originally Posted by rotunda View Post
    Are you sure though? As an ever drive to my knowledge is only there to supply ROM's to the actual machine's CPU/RAM. If you run an NTSC ROM on a PAL machine or vise versa the crystal will still effect game play. The ever drive is simply providing the ROM data to be used by the system not controlling the speed of the ROM being played. If you are running the same ROM region as the machine there should be no issues but I think it's worth taking note of.
    Oh yeah, definitely. If you're playing a PAL ROM on an NTSC console (or vice versa) then the game will definitely not run correctly regardless of whether it's an Everdrive or a real cartridge.
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  8. 03-10-2016, 07:17 AM
    Oh yeah, definitely. If you're playing a PAL ROM on an NTSC console (or vice versa) then the game will definitely not run correctly regardless of whether it's an Everdrive or a real cartridge.
    That's what i thought... Opened a can of worms with this one! I wonder how many mod chip/soft mod/ever drive submissions have been submitted and accepted incorrectly..
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  9. 03-10-2016, 01:07 PM
    Pretty sure I mentioned this was the case before but proof's definitely better than 'this guy on the internet said so'.

    If your PAL PS2 is softmodded with Free McBoot then you can play PS1 imports using a program called psxLauncher. That's fine (from a technical standpoint, if not a TG one) since PAL PS2's can do true NTSC. Here's two examples if anyone wants to d/l the 60fps videos from youtube & check its not just 50fps + 10 repeated frames:
    The NTSC-J version of Intelligent Qube (PS1) on my PAL PS2 - https://youtube.com/watch?v=yMUls_xc-jY
    The NTSC-U version of Dynasty Warriors 2 (PS2) also on my PAL PS2 - https://youtube.com/?v=cnGjF6FDMLE

    I don't know the makeup of a NES/SNES/N64 to comment but its not always the case that 'foreign roms' will play incorrectly on the hardware.
  10. 03-10-2016, 01:29 PM
    does it matter if you use a chipped PS1? You're putting yourself at a disadvantage compared to running the game on a real NTSC machine.
    [Twitch: spectredk],[Youtube: spring79],[Twitter: @Sp3c7r3DK]
    aka Jacob Spring and Twin Galaxies Arcade World Record holder on Metal Slug Supervehicle-001
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