Dispute: william rosa - Arcade - Spy Hunter - Points - Player: Paul Dean - Snowflake

Is this a valid dispute?

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  1. Dispute: william rosa - Arcade - Spy Hunter - Points - Player: Paul Dean - Snowflake

    03-23-2021, 01:19 PM
    Arcade - Spy Hunter - Points
    Track
    https://www.twingalaxies.com/scores.php?scores=3397
    Rank

    Rules
    Switch No.1 @ B3 Located On Sound I/O P.C. Board
    1-9 = OFF/UNUSED
    10 = OFF
    Switch No.3 @ D14 Located On Sound I/O P.C. Board
    1-4 = OFF
    The following settings must be changed within the Service Mode via the Machine Setup Option;
    Difficulty Level: 3
    1st Extra Base Awarded @ 30,000 Points
    Extra Base Awarded Every 30,000 Points Up To A Maximum Of 3
    Note: The above Dip Switches, are not only the FACTORY DEFAULT settings, but are also the correct Twin Galaxies Tournament Settings for this title.
    Player Name
    Paul Dean
    Original Adjudication
    N/A
    Verification Method
    Referee
    Verification Date
    1985-06-28
    Disputed Score
    9,512,590 (Rank 1)
    Disputed By
    Snowflake
    Dispute Evidence / Rationale
    This has been officially disputed a few times, and has been the center of several recent TG discussions. I feel people deserve to have the dispute centralized. I am therefore not starting this as a dispute but as centralization. Or better yet, view it as a defense more than a dispute as now it gives paul or anyone else an easy place to respond once and be done with it-- not that they have an obligation to do even that.
  2. 03-23-2021, 02:06 PM
    Following.
  3. 03-23-2021, 05:01 PM
    Also following
  4. 03-23-2021, 07:12 PM
    Following as well.
    Lauren Tyler
    Eternal Champion of Ragol
    Likes datagod liked this post
  5. 03-23-2021, 08:10 PM
    Unless a case is made why Paul's score is not valid, I am voting NO, this is not a valid dispute.
  6. 03-23-2021, 10:01 PM
    Quote Originally Posted by Snowflake
    This has been officially disputed a few times, and has been the center of several recent TG discussions. I feel people deserve to have the dispute centralized. I am therefore not starting this as a dispute but as centralization. Or better yet, view it as a defense more than a dispute as now it gives paul or anyone else an easy place to respond once and be done with it-- not that they have an obligation to do even that.
    I feel like this dispute is pre-emptive of the considerable evidence gathering time required and does not serve the purpose of "centralizing" the conversation any more than Timothy Kirkland's wall post. Which was created to centralise the conversion away from multiple performance submissions.

    This is likely to remain stale until evidence is compiled so don't expect any quick evidence package. A dispute is not really a place for conjecture, it should be about evidence and discussion about that evidence.

    But let us start with something...

    One thing I think we can at least start to clarify is the duration of the world record performance. This is a VERY important thing to clarify as future tables on the 'pace required' to achieve the WR score with and without the use of glitches is likely to be presented as a main body of evidence along side, yet to be validated as, "expert/master" rated video evidence of gameplay, score pace, and difficulty by the second placed scoreboard player.

    There are many sources in press and from Mr Paul Dean himself stating that the duration was 11+hrs, 11.5hrs and 12 hrs. Many are linked by the (quite messy an hard to navigate) http://spyhunter007.com/ website.

    Paul Dean's Biography states:
    He also took first place on Spy Hunter after an 11 ½ hour marathon
    at the Third Annual Masters Tournament on June 28, 1985, beating
    the legendary players Phil Britt and Jeff Peters at the Huish Family Fun
    Center in Upland, California. This high score put him in the 1986 Guinness
    Book of World Records.
    http://spyhunter007.com/spy_my_biography.htm

    A speech by Paul Dean states 12 hours of gameplay.
    Name:  Time_Place_Confirmation_2.jpg
Views: 334
Size:  200.3 KB

    An email response to Mark Longridge from Paul Dean states:
    I played for a little over 11.5 hours on a sit-down Spy Hunter game in Upland, CA.
    http://spyhunter007.com/spy_record_keeper.htm

    In a video interview Paul states that he played the WR for 12hrs:


    In another video interview Paul states that he played the WR for 12hrs:


    It is obvious that these times stated are many years after the WR performance but Paul himself seems convinced it was an 12hr game. I think unless somehow there is evidence presented otherwise, the game duration was between 11.5hrs and 12hrs, and this range should be used in any pace calculations.

    Note: the duration of the game IS NOT evidence of glitches being used, but rather a measuring stick for time based analysis of score pace.
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  7. 03-23-2021, 10:06 PM
    Apologies to Timothy J. Kinkead, I did not intend to spell your surname incorrectly. It is out of familiarity with a fellow named Kirkland I know.
  8. 03-24-2021, 04:10 AM
    I believe that to take the 12 hours length of time somewhat seriously, the origin of that time length needs to be determined. I have mentioned this before, but it seems like the 12 hour figure came up after Phil Britt's testimony to TG (and no one has presented the number being reported earlier than 2004 to my knowledge). An 18 year gap increases the chances of incorrect recall on something like that and the wording (it always seems to be an exact amount of time rather than "about x hours" from what I've seen seems odd to me). Does the number originate with Paul, or with Phil (or someone else) and Paul has simply run with it?

    To me, if someone who was there said "the game took 12 hours" and I don't really remember the length of the game, then I might just as easily say "yeah, that sounds about right." Not saying that this is what happened, but just pointing out that there are a number of reasonable explanations for why the game could be longer than 12 hours and yet 12 hours is what continues to get stated

    I believe there was a phone call that RTM was present on. I posed this question to him in a previous thread, but am not sure if it was seen or not. reaching out to Robert and seeing if he has recollection of the length of time from that phone call and/or its origins may be a place to start.
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  9. 03-24-2021, 05:10 AM
    As I was on my morning walk I thought of a couple things I wanted to clarify from my above post:

    I'm not saying the game length was or was not 12 hours long, and I'm not pushing for it to be a certain length one way or the other. I do believe that more weight has been placed on this single stat then makes sense. I think that weight has been assigned not because of what the stat is, but because of the recent work done in regards to the stat (all of the scoring rate data). My concern with using this as a reliable data point is that at the end of the day the 12 hour length of time is:

    1) a secondary (at best) stat from the original game. The game does not keep time, the event was for a high score, not the length of time played, and 12 hour games were not an unusual thing in arcades in the early to mid 80s

    2) The stat did not, to the best of our knowledge, arise until 18 years later

    3) The stat has an unknown provenance

    To me, until the 3rd point at very least can be dealt with (though finding earlier print evidence of the length of the game would be pretty huge imo), the length of the game should be treated with a grain of salt regardless to the work done with the 12 hours in mind (Though there might also be additional angles others can think of that can help to strengthen that stat).
  10. 03-24-2021, 07:13 AM
    It is important that this dispute thread was created because everything posted here is permanent evidence. It cannot be edited or deleted unlike a user's wall thread. It can also sit quietly while evidence is gathered and presented - there is no time frame on a dispute. Thus it is THE place to have this discussion. Wall threads are good for hashing things out but this thread will serve as a permanent record of all presented evidence.

    Ok I just wanted to make sure everyone understood the worth of having a dispute thread for this.

    Now, about this score in particular, I'll add links to some things that have been casually mentioned so far:

    Retro Gamer magazine edition with interview with Paul Dean: https://datassette.nyc3.cdn.digitalo...ogamer_018.pdf

    Message thread on the Funspot forum (via the wayback machine) regarding the reinstatement:
    https://web.archive.org/web/20040629...tml?1085411949

    Archived TG forum thread regarding the reinstatement:
    https://www.twingalaxies.com/showthr...1480-Paul-Dean

    I'll keep looking for context and evidence on this. So far a lot of context but no real evidence.
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