Dispute: Jason Vasiloff - M.A.M.E. - Metal Slug - Super Vehicle-001 - Points [Single Player Only] - Player: Jorge Gutierrez - Jason Vasiloff

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  1. Dispute: Jason Vasiloff - M.A.M.E. - Metal Slug - Super Vehicle-001 - Points [Single Player Only] - Player: Jorge Gutierrez - Jason Vasiloff

    04-13-2021, 10:30 AM
    M.A.M.E. - Metal Slug - Super Vehicle-001 - Points [Single Player Only]
    Track
    https://www.twingalaxies.com/scores.php?scores=11953
    Rank

    Rules
    ROMSet: MSlug
    Hero: 3
    Continue: Off/Without
    Difficulty: Level 4
    Play Time: 60
    Blood: ON or Off
    Play Manual: ON
    Credit/Level: ON/ON
    Language: English
    Special Rules: This is a Single Player ONLY Variation! Continues are NOT allowed!
    Player Name
    Jorge Gutierrez
    Original Adjudication
    https://www.twingalaxies.com/showthread.php?t=218075
    Verification Method
    TGSAP
    Verification Date
    2021-04-01
    Disputed Score
    3,379,280 (Rank 1)
    Disputed By
    JasonV91
    Dispute Evidence / Rationale
    The .inp attached does NOT play back to the submitted score - the final score for this performance should be 3,235,690.

    This submission is a good reminder that the video attached to a MAME performance means next to nothing as far as verification goes - the true proof comes from the .inp.

    (Trying to attach screen shots from the playback of the .inp, but the site is saying I don't have permission...will try in a response below.)
  2. 04-13-2021, 10:34 AM
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  3. 04-13-2021, 12:29 PM
    Could the issue be because of using a different bios. I remember seeing this score at MARP and whoever confirmed it over there said something about the bios. I know that I couldn't even get it to play back past the first couple of stages. The player put in a big effort to score this with maxing the timer on most stages, too bad they didn't make the simple effort to play it in a more modern version of mame.
  4. 04-13-2021, 05:13 PM
    Quote Originally Posted by redelf View Post
    Could the issue be because of using a different bios. I remember seeing this score at MARP and whoever confirmed it over there said something about the bios. I know that I couldn't even get it to play back past the first couple of stages. The player put in a big effort to score this with maxing the timer on most stages, too bad they didn't make the simple effort to play it in a more modern version of mame.
    The inputs for this .inp sync up exactly through the entirety of the recording - there are no inputs in the recording after the initials are entered, so I can't see this being a BIOS issue. Even if it WERE simply due to a different BIOS being used, that would be an instant rejection as well, since the TG global MAME rules list the following:

    "For games that have a BIOS file, [Neo Geo, for example] please leave the Bios settings at the default settings. [Configurable in the GUI versions] If ever there is a game that DOES require a change from this, information will specifically be provided in the game track rules settings."

    This is simply a case of an .inp from a different performance being attached to the submission.
  5. 04-13-2021, 05:48 PM
    Oh so not a playback issue. The issue is that it's the wrong inp.

    Can we just resolve the issue with attaching the inp from MARP.
    nge_mslug_3379280_wolf106.zip
  6. 04-13-2021, 05:49 PM
    Wouldn't want people to get penalized for something that is easily fixed.
  7. 04-15-2021, 04:43 AM
    Wrong inp in submission seems pretty straightforward. Voting yes.
  8. 04-15-2021, 11:04 PM
    The following INP downloaded from MARP is the correct INP for this disputed submission and plays back to the correct score and matches the video.nge_mslug_3379280_wolf106.zip


    D:\mame\wolf106 analyze>wlfview mslug.wlf mslug.inp
    WLFVIEW 0.3 - Apr 5 2006


    Info loaded. WLF rev 9


    Recorded for the game 'mslug'
    MAME version string: 0.106 (May 16 2006)


    -- CPU info --
    Vendor: AMD
    Processor Family: 15 Processor Model: 1
    Approximate clock speed: 3111360148Hz


    -- OS info --
    Operating System: Windows NT 6.1 Service Pack 1


    -- INP info --
    Number of frames: 364171
    Average record speed: 99.999286%
    System time at start of emulation: Wed Jan 17 19:43:52 2018
    Sound: 44100Hz Samples: Enabled
    GUI: 0 Artwork: 0
    68000 CPU Core: C
    NVRAM Usage: Disabled
    BIOS used (0=default): us-e


    -- Validity --
    Check 1: INP header: OK
    Check 2: INP file: OK
    Check 3: WLF file: OK


    Beginning of INP

    00000000 6D 73 6C 75 67 00 00 00 00 57 6A 00 00 00 01 02 mslug....Wj.....
    00000010 94 96 73 B9 00 00 00 00 F8 17 60 5A 08 30 B2 92 s.....`Z.0
    00000020 00 00 00 FF 00 00 00 FF 00 00 00 FF 00 00 00 FF ............
    00000030 00 00 00 3F 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 C0 00 00 00 00 ...?...........
    00000040 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 ................
    00000050 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 ................
    00000060 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 ................
    00000070 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 ................
    00000080 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 ................
    00000090 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 3E 82 43 E1 00 00 00 FF ........>C...
    000000A0 00 00 00 FF 00 00 00 FF 00 00 00 FF 00 00 00 3F ............?
    000000B0 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 C0 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 ...............
    000000C0 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 ................
    000000D0 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 ................
    000000E0 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 ................
    000000F0 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 ................
    00000100 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 ................
    00000110 00 00 00 00 3E 82 43 E1 00 00 00 FF 00 00 00 FF ....>C......
    00000120 00 00 00 FF 00 00 00 FF 00 00 00 3F 00 00 00 00 .........?....
    00000130 00 00 00 C0 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 ...............
    00000140 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 ................
    00000150 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 ................
    00000160 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 ................
    00000170 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 ................
    00000180 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 ................



    Middle of INP

    0148A310 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 ................
    0148A320 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 ................
    0148A330 00 00 00 00 A2 82 43 E1 00 00 00 FF 00 00 00 FF ....C......
    0148A340 00 00 00 FF 00 00 00 FF 00 00 00 3F 00 00 00 00 .........?....
    0148A350 00 00 00 C0 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 ...............
    0148A360 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 ................
    0148A370 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 ................
    0148A380 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 ................
    0148A390 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 ................
    0148A3A0 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 ................
    0148A3B0 A2 82 43 E1 00 00 00 FF 00 00 00 FF 00 00 00 FF C.........
    0148A3C0 00 00 00 FF 00 00 00 3F 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 C0 ......?.......
    0148A3D0 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 ................
    0148A3E0 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 ................
    0148A3F0 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 ................
    0148A400 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 ................
    0148A410 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 ................
    0148A420 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 A2 82 43 E1 ............C
    0148A430 00 00 00 FF 00 00 00 FF 00 00 00 FF 00 00 00 FF ............
    0148A440 00 00 00 3F 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 C0 00 00 00 00 ...?...........
    0148A450 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 ................
    0148A460 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 ................
    0148A470 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 ................
    0148A480 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 ................
    0148A490 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 ................
    0148A4A0 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 A2 82 43 E1 00 00 00 FF ........C...
    0148A4B0 00 00 00 FF 00 00 00 FF 00 00 00 FF 00 00 00 3F ............?


    End of INP

    02B109E0 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 ................
    02B109F0 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 A2 82 43 E1 ............C
    02B10A00 00 00 00 FF 00 00 00 FF 00 00 00 FF 00 00 00 FF ............
    02B10A10 00 00 00 3F 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 C0 00 00 00 00 ...?...........
    02B10A20 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 ................
    02B10A30 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 ................
    02B10A40 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 ................
    02B10A50 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 ................
    02B10A60 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 ................
    02B10A70 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 A2 82 43 E1 00 00 00 FF ........C...
    02B10A80 00 00 00 FF 00 00 00 FF 00 00 00 FF 00 00 00 3F ............?
    02B10A90 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 C0 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 ...............
    02B10AA0 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 ................
    02B10AB0 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 ................
    02B10AC0 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 ................
    02B10AD0 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 ................
    02B10AE0 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 ................
    02B10AF0 00 00 00 00 A2 82 43 E1 00 00 00 FF 00 00 00 FF ....C......
    02B10B00 00 00 00 FF 00 00 00 FF 00 00 00 3F 00 00 00 00 .........?....
    02B10B10 00 00 00 C0 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 ...............
    02B10B20 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 ................
    02B10B30 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 ................
    02B10B40 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 ................
    02B10B50 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 ................
    02B10B60 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 ................
    02B10B70 A2 82 43 E1 C


    Sample good INP

    00000000 6D 73 6C 75 67 00 00 00 00 57 6A 00 00 00 01 02 mslug....Wj.....
    00000010 A0 2A AD 9A 00 00 00 00 EE 33 79 60 FF 33 F8 07 *.....3y`3.
    00000020 00 00 00 FF 00 00 00 FF 00 00 00 FF 00 00 00 FF ............
    00000030 00 00 00 3F 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 C0 00 00 00 00 ...?...........
    00000040 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 ................
    00000050 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 ................
    00000060 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 ................
    00000070 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 ................
    00000080 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 ................
    00000090 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 3E 82 43 E1 00 00 00 FF ........>C...
    000000A0 00 00 00 FF 00 00 00 FF 00 00 00 FF 00 00 00 3F ............?
    000000B0 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 C0 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 ...............
    000000C0 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 ................
    000000D0 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 ................
    000000E0 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 ................
    000000F0 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 ................
    00000100 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 ................
    00000110 00 00 00 00 3E 82 43 E1 00 00 00 FF 00 00 00 FF ....>C......
    00000120 00 00 00 FF 00 00 00 FF 00 00 00 3F 00 00 00 00 .........?....
    00000130 00 00 00 C0 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 ...............
    00000140 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 ................
    00000150 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 ................
    00000160 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 ................
    00000170 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 ................
    00000180 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 ................

    I provided the correct information and analysis for the accepted submission. Can we just add this information to the accepted submission and be done with it. It seems a waste if we remove this score for something that is so easily fixed by just adding this little piece of information to the already accepted submission.
  9. 04-16-2021, 10:58 AM
    Quote Originally Posted by Snowflake View Post
    jason, not an argument (well half an argument) more a question

    self analysis. i partially disagree with you when you consider full context of how tg works. an honest mistake results in a score pulled, deception however results in a ban and all scores removed. For that reason i think self analysis has some merit. self analysis rules out honest mistakes (or at least i think it does, you tell me). So if the self analysis/honest mistakes is done with, and an error is found, bam, person is banned. this has two side effects. the first is that the person is less likely to lie about self analysis, the second is that we have less to fear in trusting in it, since if we're suckered the person wont get away with it for long. Both those effects give self analysis some credence

    i think my logic makes sense? but i also know i know nothing about inp analysis, which is why this is only half an argument and more a question.
    As I mentioned in my previous post, there is nothing wrong with a submitter including self-analysis with an evidence package - they are free to include anything they like to convince people they've achieved a score. I also mentioned that I myself have included self-analysis in a few subs over the years, basically out of necessity, as literally no one else on the site was analyzing .inps at the time. My position is that while the submitter CAN include an analysis, adjudicators shouldn't view it with anywhere NEAR the same regard as an analysis provided by someone else - I've explained above in more detail some of the reasons for this, but self-analysis will not find errors such as the submitter misunderstanding confusing DIP settings for a track (i.e. Century Electronics games like Hunchback), misunderstanding which ROMset to use (due to version changes), or not realizing that they haven't disabled NVRAM (since the .inp WILL play back correctly on their computer, but WON'T on anyone else's).

    Any of these example reasons could be honest mistakes - whether they were intentionally done to mislead adjudicators or not is irrelevant (not to mention difficult to prove), they all still invalidate a submission. You mention "not getting away with it for long" - errors like the ones I've mentioned can only be found if someone other than the submitter plays back the .inp...if no one ever does, and adjudicators just instantly accept submissions with self-analysis only, how will these bad subs ever be found out? There is no rule against accepting subs that have self-analysis only, or self-analysis only from people an adjudicator trusts - of course, adjudicators are free to trust anything they want, that's part of the beauty of the site. That being said, in my opinion, doing so reduces the efficacy of the review process in finding bad subs before they hit the leaderboard, and if they DO get there, people need to be prepared for more disputes to be opened (like in this case). I can tell you right now, in a random audit I did yesterday, I found multiple bad MAME subs that have been accepted over the past few months, and if I get around to it, I'll open disputes for each.

    Quote Originally Posted by redelf View Post
    I provided the correct information and analysis for the accepted submission. Can we just add this information to the accepted submission and be done with it. It seems a waste if we remove this score for something that is so easily fixed by just adding this little piece of information to the already accepted submission.
    Again though, what about the credibility implications? Does it all just get reversed, like the sub never happened? Fine by me, although it makes "credibility" completely meaningless, and you'd be asking TG to completely change the way their system works. Plus, how many other subs will be allowed this special treatment? I've said before I couldn't care less if credibility disappeared tomorrow, but TG and some of the users may think differently.
    Thanks redelf, Snowflake thanked this post
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