Dispute: Garrett Holland - Sega Saturn - Sega Rally Championship - NTSC - Forest - Complete Race - Player: Shawn Charleston - Garrett C. Holland

Is this a valid dispute?

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This poll is closed
  1. Dispute: Garrett Holland - Sega Saturn - Sega Rally Championship - NTSC - Forest - Complete Race - Player: Shawn Charleston - Garrett C. Holland

    04-16-2021, 08:48 PM
    Sega Saturn - Sega Rally Championship - NTSC - Forest - Complete Race
    Track
    https://www.twingalaxies.com/scores.php?scores=1969
    Rank

    Rules
    Factory Default; 3 Laps. Any vehicle (normal or secret) may be used.
    Player Name
    Shawn Charleston
    Original Adjudication
    N/A
    Verification Method
    Referee
    Verification Date
    2004-06-11
    Disputed Score
    02:32.78 (Rank 1)
    Disputed By
    Garrett Holland
    Dispute Evidence / Rationale
    Starting dispute on behalf of another member with the intent to crowdsource an ongoing investigation into the possibility, or rather, the *impossibility* of this time on this track using the correct settings.

    Observations thus far:

    About the game:
    ∙ This game has two modes: "Arcade" and "Time Attack"
    ∙ Time Attack mode allows the player to select a specific track.
    ∙ As far as I'm aware, "Arcade"/"Championship"/"Single Player Campaign" mode has the player racing one or two laps on each of the multiple tracks: "Desert", "Forest", "Mountain", etc. where your race time is either aggregated after each one-lap run on each track, or, it's a two-lap race. (needs confirmation)

    Dates/Numbers:
    ∙ Surprise, surprise. A "06/11/2004" date submitted. For me personally, this date on a submission alone draws profound skepticism, and by "skepticism", I really mean I believe it never happened, or it did but some part or most parts of the record detail are inaccurate (wrong game, wrong person, wrong date, wrong score, wrong time, etc.), and I am being extraordinarily generous in my description.
    ∙ The current TG lap record for this 3-lap race track is 1:12.62 (72.62s). This is a pace of 3:37.86 (217.86s)
    ∙ The next fastest TG race record for this 3-lap race track is 3:44.18s (224.18s), or more than an entire minute faster than this time in dispute.
    ∙ The current Speedrun lap record for the Forest track stands at 1:12.210 (72.21s), which is a 3:36.63 pace (216.63s), or, more than 1 minute slower than this time in dispute.
    ∙ The current Speedrun 3-lap race record for this track stands at 3:38.690 (218.69s), also more than an entire minute slower than this time in dispute.
    ∙ This record in dispute would require an average of 37.59s per lap, or almost TWICE as fast as the currently lap time WR-holder.

    Information about the player:
    ∙ A TG search of this player turns up 7 records, all of which are currently categorized under the Sega Saturn platform, 6 performances of which are unremarkable, and one forum post from 2009 which mentions that the player is pictured in "TWIN GALAXIES OFFICIAL VIDEO GAME & PINBALL BOOK OF WORLD RECORDS, 1ST EDITION, 1998" on page 689. See link here -> https://www.twingalaxies.com/showthr...126#post666126
    ∙ Curiously, navigating to his profile page and clicking on "view" on each of his scores jumps you to a dead page. It appears as though upon the BLATANTLY OBVIOUS IMPORT of this player's records into the TG database, the import miscategorized 5 of the 7 records, each for the game "DAYTONA USA", assigning them to "DAYTONA USA" for the Sega Dreamcast, rather than the Sega Saturn. If the importer of these data got this completely wrong, one cannot help to speculate what else they/it got wrong. My personal presumption is "damned near everything, as per usual at that time."
    ∙ The only results that a Google search of this player's name and "Sega Rally" yields are links to his one lone entry on this title, which is this record being disputed.

    Conjecture:
    ∙ TG imported this trash data along with a bunch of other trash data they imported on 6/11/2004 (very plausible)
    ∙ They probably got this trash from a trash source like a magazine, as per usual.
    ∙ It is my contention that if this player actually received this time on this game, it was likely the aggregate race time as shown on the screen after completing one lap on the second track (which would indeed be "Forest") in "Arcade" mode or the two-lap race on this track in the single player campaign mode. Even then, based on the historical record for the first two tracks in the three track series, including the WR lap on the "Forest" track 1:52.78 is *still* extraordinarily unlikely, and not even likely possible.
    ∙ This record wasn't even for this game, probably some other racing game, and probably Daytona USA, but got important into the wrong category.

    Should I discover additional information that reveals any of the above to be in error, I'll post it in the comments section.

    For the time being, I am advocating for a record removal. TG may have been magazine stenographers at one time, but that time is long since been gone.
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  2. 04-16-2021, 08:50 PM
    Quote Originally Posted by Garrett Holland View Post
    ∙ This record in dispute would require an average of 37.59s per lap, or almost TWICE as fast as the currently lap time WR-holder.
    Correction:

    This record in dispute would require an average of 50.92s per lap, not 37.59s.
  3. 04-16-2021, 08:59 PM
    Quote Originally Posted by Oops #2
    ∙ The next fastest TG race record for this 3-lap race track is 3:44.18s (224.18s), or more than an entire minute faster than this time in dispute.
    *slower, not faster.

    Quote Originally Posted by Oops #3
    ∙ Curiously, navigating to his profile page and clicking on "view" on each of his scores jumps you to a dead page.
    *other than this record and a Virtua Cop submission, which jumps to the correct leaderboards.

    Quote Originally Posted by Oops #4
    1:52.78 is *still* extraordinarily unlikely, and not even likely possible.
    *2:32.78, not 1:52.78, but just as unlikely, and just as likely impossible.
  4. 04-17-2021, 08:51 AM
    Quote Originally Posted by Garrett Holland View Post
    *slower, not faster.


    *other than this record and a Virtua Cop submission, which jumps to the correct leaderboards.


    *2:32.78, not 1:52.78, but just as unlikely, and just as likely impossible.
    This all seems pretty well laid out. Thanks for doing that work Garrett. It definitely seems like a mistake was made in at least one part of the entry (though possibly multiple), and this time is not possible for this game.

    I'm voting yes, this dispute is valid
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  5. 04-17-2021, 04:48 PM
    Name:  tg pic.jpg
Views: 184
Size:  635.0 KBpic i Just took from the book.
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  6. 04-17-2021, 04:57 PM
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    I tried turning the image upright but it didnt come out that way. Anyway, here's his times for Sega Rally and Virtua Cop according to the 1st edition of Twin Galaxies' Official Video Game & Pinball Book of World Records
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  7. 04-17-2021, 05:12 PM
    He is also listed for 'Daytona' under the Sega Saturn section.
    Name:  Upright1.jpg
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  8. 04-17-2021, 11:06 PM
    Not to spam the thread but...

    They are called "two of the top Sega Saturn stars at Twin Galaxies" which would kind of imply they were submitting their scores here or had some kind of relationship with the organization.

    That time is listed here for that track(seen in the below picture), so it doesn't look like this score was from a different game or something completely out of left field.
    Still though, I haven't looked into the game or anything like you have Mr Holland, so maybe its "the aggregate race time as shown on the screen after completing one lap on the second track (which would indeed be "Forest") in "Arcade" mode or the two-lap race on this track in the single player campaign mode. "
    ???? Idk. I just wanted to make sure nobody missed that time being listed there in that sideways picture I posted.

    Name:  Final TG.jpg
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  9. 04-18-2021, 12:18 AM
    Interesting photo! I'm looking at all of the times under the Sega Rally heading, and all four appear to be 1-lap records ... other than his 2:32.78 listing, which would be a really bad 1-lap time, a marginal 2-lap time, or a once-in-a-lifetime 3-lap count.
  10. 04-18-2021, 02:15 AM
    Ok so now I'm torn.
    In the opening pages of Walters book I found a list of sources he used for the scores in this book. What it says here would lead one to believe ALL of the Saturn scores came from this Australian website.

    BUT, these are 2 USA players (Shawn Charleston and Andrew Gallagher), and it says the scores were achieved in Fairfield Iowa, which was the location of TG and Walters second arcade for a time.
    So I guess its possible Walter already had the scores for these two gamers, Andrew Gallagher and Shawn Charleston, and got the rest of the Sega Saturn scores from that Australian website. The fact that he knew this information about them and has their pictures would kind of lend credence to this theory, but I suppose all that could have come from that Aussie website as well.

    I tried checking out the link given in this picture. It takes you to the website for the University of Queensland Australia. I typed 'Sega Saturn' into the search bar on the website and got zero results.

    Name:  TG Evidence for Holland.jpg
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