Request for Todd Rogers "Post Verdict Dispute Discussion" Thread

  1. 06-03-2021, 08:04 AM
    Quote Originally Posted by Snowflake View Post
    I guess all thats left is to speculate if this is evidence todd did it for real, or if this is evidence of elaborate evidence faking on their part.
    Finding out is simple. Find the picture that was submitted way back whenever, and match it up with the chart above. For example, if a score of 104 million was claimed, but the photo shows a dollar sign as the right-most digit, then either the photo is faked or the score claim is wrong, and I can't imagine anyone after spending over 80 hours on a game faking a photo to show a lower score than was actually achieved.
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  2. 06-03-2021, 08:06 AM
    Quote Originally Posted by Garrett Holland View Post
    Finding out is simple. Find the picture that was submitted way back whenever, and match it up with the chart above. For example, if a score of 104 million was claimed, but the photo shows a dollar sign as the right-most digit, then either the photo is faked or the score claim is wrong, and I can't imagine anyone after spending over 80 hours on a game faking a photo to show a lower score than was actually achieved.
    Edited for clarity.
  3. 06-03-2021, 08:12 AM
    i know a mistake on both sides alot of people make is "cheaters must have no skill thats why they cheat". It results in the defender of the cheater seeing the player have some skill in some area, and as a result, just assume every other score (even if its more impressive and certainly if its less impressive) must be legit. On the flip side the accuser sets themselves up for an impossible bar, by assuming the person who cheated at one game is a skillless loser and must've cheated at all scores, the accuser finds themselves quickly embarassed when the accused does things the accuser claimed they couldnt.

    Todd must've had some good game skills to get to where he was. Its kind of a shame we wont know which of his performances were legit.
    Lode Runner champ, also, Roy was right
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  4. 06-03-2021, 08:37 AM
    Quote Originally Posted by Snowflake View Post
    i know a mistake on both sides alot of people make is "cheaters must have no skill thats why they cheat". It results in the defender of the cheater seeing the player have some skill in some area, and as a result, just assume every other score (even if its more impressive and certainly if its less impressive) must be legit. On the flip side the accuser sets themselves up for an impossible bar, by assuming the person who cheated at one game is a skillless loser and must've cheated at all scores, the accuser finds themselves quickly embarassed when the accused does things the accuser claimed they couldnt.

    Todd must've had some good game skills to get to where he was. Its kind of a shame we wont know which of his performances were legit.
    According to gutenberg(dot)org, Todd is claimed to be the "First person to play a game non-stop over 85hrs Journey Escape of 105,779,605 in 2001". 105 million would have yielded a scoreboard that reveals a "9" and the "NS" sprite as the last two digits, no dollar sign.

    Great players, and even the greatest players aren't immune from the temptation of cheating to get accolades much more quickly than they would otherwise get it from legit play. I'm tempted to all the time myself when I see some of these "photo only" scores submitted in contests here and there. (cough cough https://atariage.com/forums/topic/28...omment=4183214 COUGH COUGH COUGH! 4902ED on SCSIcide?! LOLz! NOT POSSIBLE. Dude is a straight up bullsh*t, cheating liar who wanted to see his name on the top of the list, and he got his wish, thanks in most part to this fraudulent post linked, enabled by lack of scrutiny and passive competition. The sweetest visual and sweetest sound to someone is their own name. With that being said, Todd was a bit before my time, and I haven't really deeply considered "did he or did he not". Having this conversation has made me realize something ... I'll continue to not consider it, because at the end of the day, I honestly don't give a squat either way. I do find the dynamics of how different 2600 developers coded their games fascinating, though, so I'm happy to engage in this exercise ;-)
    Last edited by Garrett Holland; 06-06-2021 at 01:55 AM.
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  5. 06-03-2021, 05:03 PM
    Quote Originally Posted by goochman View Post
    Ron performed verification of all 2600 scores regardless of submission - even his own(Though he might have used Todd as a proxy to make things look legit). Todd's stuff went through Ron. Like you Robert I didnt question Ron's integrity in this situation. I had my suspicions as well when I played 800 Defender for 4 hours to get a ~3M score and submitted around 11pm only to find my score surpassed by Ron at 9am the next morning.


    RTM REPLY - he (Ron) pulled that same stunt on me during the Atari/CV dual-deca event. If you recall, CV "Zaxxon" was one of the events, specifically "Game 1". For that event I did not even obtain a CV system until 35 days into the 60 day event, and by that time Ron was in the lead that event with 800K. I barely mustered 150-200K initially.

    I played extensively as much as I could and in short order the game clicked. I sent in a score of 2M, blowing past Ron by far. During the final week of the event Ron was on vacation with the family and had his laptop with him. With not even 3 days left...on a laptop...he upped his score to 1.5M for "Zaxxon". While on vacation.

    As it turns out that score also put him into 1st place for that event in the closing days. It was what it was at this point...this is like 17 years ago or more now.
  6. 06-04-2021, 09:37 AM
    Garrett,

    2600 Gorf also goes to "unknown places" when the score rolls at 100K - however it is consistent so its possible to calculate a final score. If you had time to perform the same rollover analysis on this title would be great.
    Goochman
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  7. 06-04-2021, 10:18 AM
    Quoted from the BM thread and posted here since it concerns TR.


    https://www.twingalaxies.com/showthr...=1#post1121634

    Quote Originally Posted by Streetwize View Post
    They actually did manage to remove at least one of Todd's scores (I think it was 2600 Donkey Kong) after the lead ref at the time concluded the tapes to supposedly verify such never really existed.
    The lead ref at the time was Mruczek, and he offered no less than 3 different excuses as to why that score was removed:

    #1 Rogers had a different version of the cartridge - this one was offered because Mruczek claimed his Donkey Kong cartridge exhibited behaviour that made it impossible to go past 800k. When David Yancey and myself stated we were able to get past that point, that excuse was brushed aside, and other excuses were cooked up. Mruczek's mystery cart was never archived, and he later claimed he sold it. The reality is, there's only one version of the game's code that was ever released, and that was confirmed by the programmer Garry Kitchen himself. Mruczek still clings to this alternate version theory, even as recently as 2016: https://www.twingalaxies.com/showthread.php/152342

    #2 Rogers took too many breaks during his game - since footage of Rogers tape was never verified or witnessed by anyone, this excuse has no basis in fact, only in Mruczek's imagination.

    #3 Corcoran never verified Rogers' tape - not only did Rogers' VCS Donkey Kong tape not exist, neither did any of Corcoran's. I called for all of Corcoran's scores to be thrown out as far back as 2006, but Mruczek refused to:
    https://www.twingalaxies.com/showthr...-Summary/page4



    Quote Originally Posted by Snowflake View Post
    todd's atari dk score wasnt just crazy high, it was truly impossible, impossible ending digits. but of course the impossible ending digits was no reason to remove it. the idea was the game became too hard after 800k to continue, not an exact kill screen, but diminsihing returns where you cant last long. rtm claimed to have a cart that has this difficult increase. todds cart didnt exhibit that behavior, so todd's score was removed for being a prototype cart. years went by, and it turns out lots of others people had a cart like todds, but noone else had a cart like rtm's. once the score removal could no longer be defended as an alt cart then the lack of video excuse was given. again in truth yes this score should've been removed due to the impossible last digits, the final excuse was also fine, but the goal post moving along the way led to plenty of heartache. its important to do things for the right reason.
    Again, there's only ever been 1 version of VCS Donkey Kong. This whole alternate version theory of Mruczek's is due to the fact he personally couldn't influence the fireballs in his game (because he simply lacked the ability or skill to do so), but since he continues to believe his cart was different, then his score in the database should either be removed or given its own track. It doesn't belong mixed with everyone else's scores, and it should never have been used as a reason to remove anybody else's scores.



    Quote Originally Posted by Snowflake View Post
    Theres a 2006 link talking about the donkey kong saga (your link is 2016) and this is from tg itself
    https://www.twingalaxies.com/showthread.php/116199

    there was a heck of a lot more drama invovled in that score than just missing tapes. missing tapes never came up until all the other excuses came out.
    Yes, yes there was. There was never a legit reason for any of it, but thanks to Mruczek's combative attitude towards anybody who questioned his decision-making, it was impossible to avoid as you and everyone else can see from reading some of those old threads. Unfortunately, these issues continue to resurface because they've never been properly handled. So here we are, 15 years later, still talking about all the circumstances surrounding Rogers VCS Donkey Kong score.
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  8. 06-04-2021, 11:12 AM
    Quote Originally Posted by goochman View Post
    Garrett,

    2600 Gorf also goes to "unknown places" when the score rolls at 100K - however it is consistent so its possible to calculate a final score. If you had time to perform the same rollover analysis on this title would be great.
    Hi Stephen! Which title are you referring to when you say "this title"? If it is Journey Escape, then the rollover analysis was done a few comments above, and can be seen here: https://www.twingalaxies.com/showthr...=1#post1122249

    The one I did for Gorf is here: https://www.twingalaxies.com/showthr...=1#post1051327

    If neither, let me know which title and Ill be glad to do one for it!
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  9. 06-04-2021, 11:50 AM
    Quote Originally Posted by Garrett Holland View Post
    Hi Stephen! Which title are you referring to when you say "this title"? If it is Journey Escape, then the rollover analysis was done a few comments above, and can be seen here: https://www.twingalaxies.com/showthr...=1#post1122249

    The one I did for Gorf is here: https://www.twingalaxies.com/showthr...=1#post1051327

    If neither, let me know which title and Ill be glad to do one for it!
    NM - I was referring to 2600 Gorf which you have already done -- thanks!
    Goochman
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