Request for Todd Rogers "Post Verdict Dispute Discussion" Thread

  1. 06-06-2021, 05:48 AM
    Quote Originally Posted by Barthax View Post
    That is so subjective. :P There were a bunch of ZX Spectrum games that I completed back in the day which passing acquaintances would be incredulous, dismissing my claims. One in particular sticks out as a memory: The Way of the Exploding Fist on ZX Spectrum is finite (unlike the C64, from my understanding) and what made it particularly stand out is I used the keyboard. I was around at a friends place & someone I vaguely knew of the time was also there. Conversation turned to TWoftEF & my friend commented I'd finished it on keyboard. Incredulity ensued and I bowed to peer pressure, sat down & completed it first attempt on keyboard - which requires mapping out all eight directions as separate keys and fire button which I spread across the keyboard in a single line. At the end of the attempt and was summarily dismissed again and realised it's better just to not boast. These days, I record & submit - if conversation happens to pass over something, I can point but there's huge amounts of achievements - just like I expect of most people here - that I've forgotten or remember something impossible. Like maxing out Donkey Kong on Game & Watch: it rolls but my memory is of a max-out in the park in London behind Blackshaw Road in Tooting on my friends G&W - spawned a death to the G&W bubble in my pre-teen circle of friends of the time. :P
    i think you're making two points. perhaps "prestigous" was the wrong word, maybe i should've said "popular" or "loved". My point wasnt that TG should treat the game as better, but since alot of us do prefer it, its gonna get attention and is harder to forget. It was on RTMs short list in 2002 to someday get such a score, that should make it more memorable for him if he finally pulled it off, todds kaboom score was listed by rtm as a reason for doubt of todd but to be fair this point goes against me as it appears his memory was off there, still it establsihes caring about the game and its a lot harder to be confused if you spent 4 hours achieving a goal. I think your second point goes exactly to memory being impefect. yes, we dont just forget even worse we sometimes remember things that never happened. witness memory with all its flaws used to the best option, but the failings of memory, in this day and age with our technical recordings, should be a reason for tech proof to be sought out over memory.

    Thank you for your response, i feel like we're all at least removing the heated aspect, maybe we'll be able to get this resolved.
    Lode Runner champ, also, Roy was right
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  2. 06-06-2021, 06:00 AM
    Quote Originally Posted by Snowflake View Post
    i think you're making two points. perhaps "prestigous" was the wrong word, maybe i should've said "popular" or "loved". My point wasnt that TG should treat the game as better, but since alot of us do prefer it, its gonna get attention and is harder to forget. It was on RTMs short list in 2002 to someday get such a score, that should make it more memorable for him if he finally pulled it off, todds kaboom score was listed by rtm as a reason for doubt of todd but to be fair this point goes against me as it appears his memory was off there, still it establsihes caring about the game and its a lot harder to be confused if you spent 4 hours achieving a goal. I think your second point goes exactly to memory being impefect. yes, we dont just forget even worse we sometimes remember things that never happened. witness memory with all its flaws used to the best option, but the failings of memory, in this day and age with our technical recordings, should be a reason for tech proof to be sought out over memory.

    Thank you for your response, i feel like we're all at least removing the heated aspect, maybe we'll be able to get this resolved.
    Memories are fickle things. I believe there's been studies that suggest memory of an event is only the memory of the previous remembering of the event. I've had one severe motorbike smash: something I know I used to be able to recall and did so in police statements on two occasions months apart. These days, even the family joke of me walking out of the hospital arms crossed in slings, potentially falling flat on my face, is more memorable than the event that destroyed part of my spine. [Edit:] I only remember the serenity of blue sky while I was somersaulting the car.
    Last edited by Barthax; 06-06-2021 at 06:04 AM.
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  3. 06-06-2021, 06:07 AM
    Quote Originally Posted by Barthax View Post
    Memories are fickle things. I believe there's been studies that suggest memory of an event is only the memory of the previous remembering of the event. I've had one severe motorbike smash: something I know I used to be able to recall and did so in police statements on two occasions months apart. These days, even the family joke of me walking out of the hospital arms crossed in slings, potentially falling flat on my face, is more memorable than the event that destroyed part of my spine.
    i remember learning,i forgot the exact wording (ironic considering the subject matter here), that almost like clutter new memories can interfere with the old. I never read anything about the memory of the memory being whats preserved but thx for sharing, i instantly believe it, because just a few weeks ago i noticed that to be true. I wont delve into my personal life but i've been trying to remember something and preserve those memories as best i can and i started to realize i was remembering remembering more than direct remembering. so on a personal note, thank you, this helps me in certain ways i chose not to go into, and back to the world of scores, also thank you, we're not psychologists but we need to have some understanding of how memory works when researching these things, so thats helpful
    Lode Runner champ, also, Roy was right
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  4. 06-06-2021, 11:01 AM
    Quote Originally Posted by Snowflake View Post
    Rtm I’m not taking direct quotes any more where you name call and spreading that further but honestly that answer did at least partially start to address things

    are you saying you don’t know if your kaboom score is real? Of course I don’t expect you to remember everything but considering how often you mention kaboom, how prestigious an Atari title is, and how in your interviews it was on a short list of goals im kinda surprised you’d forget whether or not you were the first to get a perfect kaboom

    If your statement about not remembering every single score is more deflection then I’m back to finding your responses useless but if you’re saying you don’t remember this score in particular then I have to accept that answer


    RTM REPLY - Jesus H Tap-Dancing Christ, dude !! HOW did you come up with "are you saying you don't know if your kaboom score is real" ? Let's try to figure that one out...

    What I said - "I cannot be held responsible for clerical errors made by a fellow TG staffer with any of my scores, and I had nor have ANY intention of fact-checking whether they entered one or more of my scores incorrectly or not, whether it is a numeric entry or a date-based entry."

    Now WHERE in here does it say I do not know if the score is real ? I said that I have no intention now, nor did even in the past, of fact-checking if my score was entered correctly either by score or by time.

    MEANING...and please do not purport to tell me what I mean...that if I submitted to Ron decades back a score of 23,500 and he entered 23,505 then that was what he entered and I did not bother to cross-check. NOR did I cross-check if the submission date was hypothetically January 1st and he entered January 21st. I was not his secretary, and all TG staffers were expected to at par minimum be accurate in score entry.

    Now...as far as my scores sent to Corcoran from yesteryear...as well as those sent to any other referee AND those recorded onto VHS and never sent to any other referee. I made one (1) VHS tape...no dupe, so if its now lost, it's lost. This includes my final tape to Ron sent right before his removal from TG which contained my Odyssey 2 scores on "Pick Axe Pete" games 2-8 (or 10), and my two scores on I forget the O2 title "Spinout" or "Speedway", and MAYBE a weak submission on "U.F.O.". That was one of the 125 tapes Brien King said remained from police custody (if you research you will find 1 was mine, approx 25 were Todd and approx 100 were other gamers)

    In the 100+ unwatched tapes that was overwhelmingly the 7 games I participated in from the Summer Console Challenges of 2001, plus a few others here and there such as Sony PS1 "Konami Classics Vol 1" and not much else as the XBox tapes went to Matt Leto and any CV scores from the Atari/CV Deca went to either Corcoran or Knox for the event, I forget which. All my other scores were 2600-related and went to Corcoran, or MAME-related and all INP's thru Dec/06 were sent to Kelly Flewin and/or Brien King along with any MAME INP's that I had archived from other gamer verifications.

    The only, and I mean ONLY, recorded performances that I have any backup for...in MY possession...are a few recent MAME performances all of which were either uploaded to MARP or were submitted to TGSAP.

    Now to your continuous and NON-STOP efforts towards your agenda, including allegations, suppositions and implications...

    -> I am under no professional, ethical, moral or legal obligation to continue submitting scores to TG or to any score-tracking entity. If I choose not to that is my right. No other conclusion should be drawn from it...I simply no longer wish to competitively game OR to submit performances.

    -> I have said this before and I will say it again now...the reason I stopped submitting to TG...entirely since early 2020..is because YOU and your cohorts sucked out every last vestige of enjoyment out of competitive gaming from me between your nonsense and BS. THAT is the reason and not anything else that you are your sorry cohorts say or think

    -> I have also said this before that since approx 2006 I no longer have been playing console gaming as I gave up my TV set once my favourite TV show "Alias" ended...there was nothing on regular TV that I watched at that point in my life, at least not until TWD hit AMC and even then I watched it thru 2013 via DVD's until I moved and got FIOS, but I still have absolutely ZERO intention of re-purchasing consoles just to submit scores to TG and give you fodder to judge my recordings on or to comment on dust-bunnies nearby or any other troll-like comments that you may come up with.

    -> Quite simply, short of the few MAME submissions from 2018-2020 to TG and MARP, and two submission to Aurcade on "Pandora's Palace" and "Cosmic Alien" over the past few years (but nothing since 2019 or 2018), I am DONE with gaming submissions

    -> I have nothing left to prove in gaming to any other gamer...most if not all of my older scores save for max-outs are NOT world records save for a small handful. As it turns out, a great many of them due to percentage of world record that they are has lead to my being on top of the ESI index, another issue, of which I have no doubt ticks you off to no end even though this is not by any direct effort of my own but rather the algorithem that Jace had decided to go with years back. It is what it is...deal with it. As for myself, I have asked if another method could be selected as an alternate/supplement but the choice to do that is not mine to make.

    -> Back to scores, any and all documentation was duly submitted to TG staffers at the time save for live event scores and vacation scores from Funspot from the 2003-2007 range, the few that there are, and again, with the sole exception of perhaps less than 5, the vast majority are NOT world records.

    -> YOU, [**CENSORED BY ADMIN** - name calling], have attempted to challenge some of my scores to date on the flimsiest of "evidence", if you can even call it evidence, including my mere 2M on "Journey Escape" because of a COMMENT that I made in a thread a good year or more prior related to another gamer's performance (Todd's I think). Because of a COMMENT, not the score itself. I'm not even wasting my time on trying to remember the others because each and every one of your attempts failed...one, in fact, I think you rescinded on your own.

    You're as bad as Stilphen...who in a recent comment suggested that my own Atari 2600 DK score should be removed...NOT because it wasn't done, but because my cart disallowed me from controlling fireballs. THAT is a reason to dump a score ? You two guys have a clear-cut vendetta here, grasping at straws to further your respective agendas.

    YOU are questioning a "Kaboom" score from 50K from an event and question it not because it was done, but because it is 50K vs a million. Two words...jittery paddles. I submitted what I could for that event and that was that. I can't even remember the event outcome or the other titles that event...it is potentially 2003 and prior...18 years or more. Do you honestly expect me to remember all the details or even care ?

    The only events I remember crystal clear was the Atari/CV deca which Corcoran and Knox ran as for that event I did not get my CV console until 35 days into the 60 day even and even so managed to set four new WR's on "Zaxxon", "Mr Do", "Miner 2049'er" and "Montezuma's Revenge" (having never so much as ever played the latter) all over the span of 25 days...THAT you don't question as strange, but you DO question a 1M on "Kaboom" which is easier ? OR a mere 20K on "Kaboom" (A) which is quite simply MUCH easier than doing that 4-WR performance over 25 days ? Un-freaking-real.

    -> Reminds me of Ferretti which questioned why I thought "Dodge'em" on the 2600 was too easy so dumped all submissions (including my own) from the TG database along with others like "Word Zapper" and "Outlaw". AMAZING how no one seems to have a problem when David Nelson, one of my successors, did the SAME thing for the arcade game "Shoot the Bear" but it was my dumping of max-performance scores on easy titles which was a focal point.

    -> As for all OTHER dumped scores, two (2) were re-instated (SW TGTS and SH) although all the rest were rightfully removed...and ironically the SH submission came under fire recently as well so it was just the SW TGTS then. ALL the years of complaints from people and when it all comes down to it only one single score removal was indeed a problem...and I re-instated it after discussion with Palmer for SW TGTS without prejudice.

    -> Last but not least, I'll state that your absolutely WRONG implications about the timing of my response to the original Todd Rogers dispute thread and Jace/TG rendering final decision have now been definitively proven false...which just goes to show how much of a conspiracy theorist nut you actually are. if you STILL think there is more to it than that, then you are as hopelessly lost as those morons who blindly follow a certain unelected public official in his grandiose delusions of theft of an election.

    -> And with that, and I've said this before, I am not going to be posting to TG now for quite some time, regardless of the thread content. You and Stilphen can show what complete idiots you are and I do not care at this point. You're both trolls with an agenda, plain and simple.
    Last edited by TWIN GALAXIES; 06-07-2021 at 01:11 AM.
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  5. 06-06-2021, 11:05 AM
    Quote Originally Posted by Snowflake View Post
    i think you're making two points. perhaps "prestigous" was the wrong word, maybe i should've said "popular" or "loved". My point wasnt that TG should treat the game as better, but since alot of us do prefer it, its gonna get attention and is harder to forget. It was on RTMs short list in 2002 to someday get such a score, that should make it more memorable for him if he finally pulled it off, todds kaboom score was listed by rtm as a reason for doubt of todd but to be fair this point goes against me as it appears his memory was off there, still it establsihes caring about the game and its a lot harder to be confused if you spent 4 hours achieving a goal


    RTM REPLY - missed this one, so THIS is my final reply.

    If what you are referring to is Atari 2600 "Kaboom", not once did I ever state that it took me 4 hours to get a million. At the pace I tended to play it took around 5 hours. There was no "fastest" categories for the title in TG...you simply got a max score and that was that whether it was "Chopper Command" or any other title.

    The two that I regretfully never maxed were "H.E.R.O." where I died right before 700K, I think, and "Megamania" where I cracked under pressure and never bothered to try again.

    And with that...final post.
  6. 06-06-2021, 11:13 AM
    Quote Originally Posted by RTM View Post
    RTM REPLY - Jesus H Tap-Dancing Christ, dude !! HOW did you come up with "are you saying you don't know if your kaboom score is real" ? Let's try to figure that one out...

    What I said - "I cannot be held responsible for clerical errors made by a fellow TG staffer with any of my scores, and I had nor have ANY intention of fact-checking whether they entered one or more of my scores incorrectly or not, whether it is a numeric entry or a date-based entry."

    Now WHERE in here does it say I do not know if the score is real ? I said that I have no intention now, nor did even in the past, of fact-checking if my score was entered correctly either by score or by time.

    MEANING...and please do not purport to tell me what I mean...that if I submitted to Ron decades back a score of 23,500 and he entered 23,505 then that was what he entered and I did not bother to cross-check. NOR did I cross-check if the submission date was hypothetically January 1st and he entered January 21st. I was not his secretary, and all TG staffers were expected to at par minimum be accurate in score entry.

    Now...as far as my scores sent to Corcoran from yesteryear...as well as those sent to any other referee AND those recorded onto VHS and never sent to any other referee. I made one (1) VHS tape...no dupe, so if its now lost, it's lost. This includes my final tape to Ron sent right before his removal from TG which contained my Odyssey 2 scores on "Pick Axe Pete" games 2-8 (or 10), and my two scores on I forget the O2 title "Spinout" or "Speedway", and MAYBE a weak submission on "U.F.O.". That was one of the 125 tapes Brien King said remained from police custody (if you research you will find 1 was mine, approx 25 were Todd and approx 100 were other gamers)

    In the 100+ unwatched tapes that was overwhelmingly the 7 games I participated in from the Summer Console Challenges of 2001, plus a few others here and there such as Sony PS1 "Konami Classics Vol 1" and not much else as the XBox tapes went to Matt Leto and any CV scores from the Atari/CV Deca went to either Corcoran or Knox for the event, I forget which. All my other scores were 2600-related and went to Corcoran, or MAME-related and all INP's thru Dec/06 were sent to Kelly Flewin and/or Brien King along with any MAME INP's that I had archived from other gamer verifications.

    The only, and I mean ONLY, recorded performances that I have any backup for...in MY possession...are a few recent MAME performances all of which were either uploaded to MARP or were submitted to TGSAP.

    Now to your continuous and NON-STOP efforts towards your agenda, including allegations, suppositions and implications...

    -> I am under no professional, ethical, moral or legal obligation to continue submitting scores to TG or to any score-tracking entity. If I choose not to that is my right. No other conclusion should be drawn from it...I simply no longer wish to competitively game OR to submit performances.

    -> I have said this before and I will say it again now...the reason I stopped submitting to TG...entirely since early 2020..is because YOU and your cohorts sucked out every last vestige of enjoyment out of competitive gaming from me between your nonsense and BS. THAT is the reason and not anything else that you are your sorry cohorts say or think

    -> I have also said this before that since approx 2006 I no longer have been playing console gaming as I gave up my TV set once my favourite TV show "Alias" ended...there was nothing on regular TV that I watched at that point in my life, at least not until TWD hit AMC and even then I watched it thru 2013 via DVD's until I moved and got FIOS, but I still have absolutely ZERO intention of re-purchasing consoles just to submit scores to TG and give you fodder to judge my recordings on or to comment on dust-bunnies nearby or any other troll-like comments that you may come up with.

    -> Quite simply, short of the few MAME submissions from 2018-2020 to TG and MARP, and two submission to Aurcade on "Pandora's Palace" and "Cosmic Alien" over the past few years (but nothing since 2019 or 2018), I am DONE with gaming submissions

    -> I have nothing left to prove in gaming to any other gamer...most if not all of my older scores save for max-outs are NOT world records save for a small handful. As it turns out, a great many of them due to percentage of world record that they are has lead to my being on top of the ESI index, another issue, of which I have no doubt ticks you off to no end even though this is not by any direct effort of my own but rather the algorithem that Jace had decided to go with years back. It is what it is...deal with it. As for myself, I have asked if another method could be selected as an alternate/supplement but the choice to do that is not mine to make.

    -> Back to scores, any and all documentation was duly submitted to TG staffers at the time save for live event scores and vacation scores from Funspot from the 2003-2007 range, the few that there are, and again, with the sole exception of perhaps less than 5, the vast majority are NOT world records.

    -> YOU, "D'ohflake", have attempted to challenge some of my scores to date on the flimsiest of "evidence", if you can even call it evidence, including my mere 2M on "Journey Escape" because of a COMMENT that I made in a thread a good year or more prior related to another gamer's performance (Todd's I think). Because of a COMMENT, not the score itself. I'm not even wasting my time on trying to remember the others because each and every one of your attempts failed...one, in fact, I think you rescinded on your own.

    You're as bad as Stilphen...who in a recent comment suggested that my own Atari 2600 DK score should be removed...NOT because it wasn't done, but because my cart disallowed me from controlling fireballs. THAT is a reason to dump a score ? You two guys have a clear-cut vendetta here, grasping at straws to further your respective agendas.

    YOU are questioning a "Kaboom" score from 50K from an event and question it not because it was done, but because it is 50K vs a million. Two words...jittery paddles. I submitted what I could for that event and that was that. I can't even remember the event outcome or the other titles that event...it is potentially 2003 and prior...18 years or more. Do you honestly expect me to remember all the details or even care ?

    The only events I remember crystal clear was the Atari/CV deca which Corcoran and Knox ran as for that event I did not get my CV console until 35 days into the 60 day even and even so managed to set four new WR's on "Zaxxon", "Mr Do", "Miner 2049'er" and "Montezuma's Revenge" (having never so much as ever played the latter) all over the span of 25 days...THAT you don't question as strange, but you DO question a 1M on "Kaboom" which is easier ? OR a mere 20K on "Kaboom" (A) which is quite simply MUCH easier than doing that 4-WR performance over 25 days ? Un-freaking-real.

    -> Reminds me of Ferretti which questioned why I thought "Dodge'em" on the 2600 was too easy so dumped all submissions (including my own) from the TG database along with others like "Word Zapper" and "Outlaw". AMAZING how no one seems to have a problem when David Nelson, one of my successors, did the SAME thing for the arcade game "Shoot the Bear" but it was my dumping of max-performance scores on easy titles which was a focal point.

    -> As for all OTHER dumped scores, two (2) were re-instated (SW TGTS and SH) although all the rest were rightfully removed...and ironically the SH submission came under fire recently as well so it was just the SW TGTS then. ALL the years of complaints from people and when it all comes down to it only one single score removal was indeed a problem...and I re-instated it after discussion with Palmer for SW TGTS without prejudice.

    -> Last but not least, I'll state that your absolutely WRONG implications about the timing of my response to the original Todd Rogers dispute thread and Jace/TG rendering final decision have now been definitively proven false...which just goes to show how much of a conspiracy theorist nut you actually are. if you STILL think there is more to it than that, then you are as hopelessly lost as those morons who blindly follow a certain unelected public official in his grandiose delusions of theft of an election.

    -> And with that, and I've said this before, I am not going to be posting to TG now for quite some time, regardless of the thread content. You and Stilphen can show what complete idiots you are and I do not care at this point. You're both trolls with an agenda, plain and simple.
    quite the long post where i noticed you refuse to lock yourself into saying that fake kaboom score is real. You refuse to say its wrong. What even say you dont know, just that you wont look into it. yet you have time for all this. name calling -- which considering when i name call you back theres all sorts of demands from you for me to banned i've now moved on to tattling as you tattle and reported it. I also find it interesting in that comment you needed to throw in a line calling trump supporters stupid, such political comments to others who have nothing to do with this shows how toxic you get. i also think its funny you blame "trolls" for your lack of submission yet you'll be active on forums where drama is way heavier than a simple submissoin would be. "i dont know" is a fine answer "i dont remember is a fine answer " yes, no " are fine answers, but instead i get a gigantic book on how you dont care to remember if your kaboom score is real or not. lovely
    Lode Runner champ, also, Roy was right
  7. 06-06-2021, 11:15 AM
    Quote Originally Posted by RTM View Post
    RTM REPLY - missed this one, so THIS is my final reply.

    If what you are referring to is Atari 2600 "Kaboom", not once did I ever state that it took me 4 hours to get a million. At the pace I tended to play it took around 5 hours. There was no "fastest" categories for the title in TG...you simply got a max score and that was that whether it was "Chopper Command" or any other title.

    The two that I regretfully never maxed were "H.E.R.O." where I died right before 700K, I think, and "Megamania" where I cracked under pressure and never bothered to try again.

    And with that...final post.
    if it took you 5 hours then all the more i dont see how could you forget a 5 hour game. to be clear my 4 hour comment came from thats about how long it takes to do the perfect score, i wasnt stating that you stated you did it in that time, just that a 4 hour game is hard to forget, thank you for making my point all the stronger.
    Lode Runner champ, also, Roy was right
  8. 06-06-2021, 12:07 PM
    I guess the most logical questions would be "How did the Kaboom score get entered into the database?" and "Was it on a video tape or not?".
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  9. 06-07-2021, 01:34 AM
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    **THIS THREAD HAS BEEN CLOSED**

    The posted purpose of this thread was specified to be in regard to a post dispute discussion relating specifically to the Dragster dispute verdict.

    It has now severely derailed and has moved into off-topic and TG TOS infringing expression of communication between members, which includes personal accusations, innuendo, finger-pointing, various attacks on multiple people's character, and name calling.

    There is no place for that type of discussion here at TG. This is a warning to all involved parties.

    We strongly considered deleting all of the off-topic posts, however instead of doing that we have decided to leave them for the moment and close the thread as an alternative.

    Please keep all threads on topic. Remember, there is a strong policy here establishing that TG Members can only publicly challenge score performances, not each other's character.

    In regard to the Kaboom dispute discussion derailment itself, @Snowflake has formally requested that TG consider reopening the aforementioned dispute for more evidentiary input. We are going to review the current closed dispute evidentiary body and make a determination regarding @Snowflake's request.

    That is all.
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