Post Verdict Dispute - Robert T Mruczek - Kaboom (2600) - Robert T Mruczek

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  1. Post Verdict Dispute - Robert T Mruczek - Kaboom (2600) - Robert T Mruczek

    06-21-2021, 09:13 PM
    Going against what I said earlier just to open this thread and have one last say now that all the needless speculation has finished.

    One of the final comments in the thread..."Funny how that works, eh? One of his most prized achievements has been in the database with a wrong date for almost 20 years and it isn't til now that he is willing to correct it. Then again he probably didn't see much of a problem when his score was listed as the first ever so no need to correct that. Also funny how how all of these glitches, mishaps, score entry errors, etc all 100% of the time benefit the gamer rather than not."

    My reply to that.

    (A) whoever said this was one of my "most prized achievements" ? I had already done it decades prior...just as I did for "Chopper Command", and although I never duplicated it again, for "Laserblast". These are not "prized achievements" EDIT - and if I ever did, really, so what ? I know a couple of scores that I am now most proud of, but perhaps at some point Kaboom was...I've done a lot more better achievements since then, although some of my older ones like "Montezuma's Revenge" for the CV, THAT is one that I consider to be a "prized achievement"

    (B) whoever said that I was aware of the date to begin with ? Outside of my "Star Wars" arcade achievement I cannot at this very moment remember any specific dates of ANY of my achievements both past and present. The year perhaps, and in some cases the month (such as the Summer Console championship scores from Apr/2001-Jun/2001, but not the specific dates. But back to the statement made...at what point did I even say I was aware of the date ? EDIT - pre-dispute if what I mean

    A lot of scores were imported from the old Snipercade site as well as from the Cubeman site for MAME. No one checked the dates. The original files were huge text files without even the benefit of columns...just careful spacing for sake of alignment. If the two referees in question made a date mistake in their data file, that is likely what was carrier over into the TG database...and actually that is incorrect as Longridge never even HAD dates in his MAME database so the date of the import was likely doubling as both the entry date and the validation date.

    There was never any "edit reports" of scores entered for approval review...security allowed referees to both enter and submit directly into the database. And even after self-entry was eliminated, that capacity to simultaneously enter and submit still was the business model.

    These arguments and speculations are over what things should have been...I'm telling you the way that they actually were. Backseat driving after two decades cannot change the fact that the original TG...the one from 1981-1987...set the tone. But there was no computer back then, only pen and paper. In the 1996 range when the company's second incarnation began, or 1995 (I really am unsure as I only joined TG online after the Book came out), THAT incarnation had a team of people and absolutely zero proofreading control.

    Back in that era mistakes were made the likes of which you have never seen before. Six billion on arcade "Star Wars" being one of them. Tens of thousands of scores imported from unverifiable databases or those without scrutiny in the era of the Game Genie/Pro-Action Reply devices. Scores culled from "TG Affiliates" based on the arcade manager's word alone. Scores taken directly from the default game leaderboards along with the actual leaderboard initials for the "submitter".

    The third incarnation of TG, after that team had left, featured point-of-entry access only...in other words, only Walter could enter scores, period, and the backlog was astounding save for the off-site Snipercade and MAME scoreboards which did not have those constraints.

    To alleviate the ever growing backlog of both scores, variations, titles and even platforms, ACCESS.MDB database entry was created which allowed for imports, initially of platforms, titles and variations, and somewhat later the scores. But again, there was no double-checking by anyone. The same grassroots/small-staff approach that TG originally had more than a decade prior had returned...the "staff" you could count on one hand at one point, and that included Board of Directors member Billy Mitchell who did nothing at all with database entry assistance.

    As scores were entered the backlog was being chipped away at. No one, and I mean NO one from the staff at the time had the bandwidth to re-check what was being entered. If a score from Funspot's 1999 event was entered as July 1999 instead of the actual event date, then that's what entered the TG database. But while it was expected for each referee to "proofread" their entry screen before hitting submit...or the ACCESS.MDB upload file...I did not check if Ron did for his own, he did not check my work, etc. And Walter did not check anyone's entries.

    On occasion a gamer would write in with a mistake made and it would be fixed, but overall if the gamer did not catch it, neither did we. Same goes especially for our own scores. I have a "Scramble" arcade record (at the time) from I think 2001, but don't ask me to recite the actual score or the date...I know it was May/01 and 1.1M-something, that's about it. I don't even know my precise SW arcade score other than 300 million and 7K and change...could be 300,007,584 and I'd have to assume it was correct. These scores are two decades old and then some...I do NOT remember the details and most gamers don't. Some maintained meticulous records, but most did not. And the overwhelming majority never wrote back to TG asking for data entry corrections that they spotted.

    (C) you say I "did not have a problem" seeing my score was listed as first-ever...again, you assume I even knew that it was. You forget that Todd's scores were removed and he very well might have had a max score. I cannot be sure of any others removed, but I never gave my "being first" a passing thought as I never bothered to check the score's accuracy in terms of the date. I never cared to, and never will. Don't care about the date of my "Chopper Command" score either, of that for "Keystone Kapers"...these are nearly 20 year old scores and I have far more important matters to concern myself with now.

    (D) mishaps ALWAYS benefitting the gamer ? You seem to forget how every single ACAM score on "Indiana Jones" set at Funspot was deleted from the database after it was discovered that their machine had one of the settings incorrect and one extra life was being awarded. No one complained when the scores were removed, they simply were. Same for the incorrect settings on "Night Driver" (MAME) which originally blocked gamers from getting an extended play.

    (E) Another gamer suggested that I had been in control of the Atari 2600 upload, referring to my "Enduro" score and the ones truncated.

    Corcoran was removed from TG in Feb/04 - https://www.twingalaxies.com/showthread.php/114464-LOCKED-What-happened-to-Ron-Corcoran

    Thus he was part of TG when all those Enduro scores and other titles were imported into the TG database. While I handled the import of Longridge's MAME scores, Corcoran would have handled the Atari scores. His database, his import.

    My own score, which someone claims "benefited" by a truncation of selected other scores, had nothing to do with that mistake...NOR was it an impressive score, so clearly this person's bandwagon agenda is going to continue on and on. Expect another such score challenge to come based on similarly flimsy "evidence".

    And finally, ONE axe-to-grind gamer seems to believe that this score is my "Scarlet Letter". Funny how it's him who says this considering one of his many pet peeves against me is his rejected "Asteroids" marathon in which he tried to submit on a non-original boardset going thru Walter but without giving him ALL the facts on how this boardset behaved. His submission was rejected by the Board of Referees and rightly so. I'd says that has been HIS "Scarlet Letter" for a good 20 years now.

    But he can say and believe whatever he wants...I could care less about him or his antics, beliefs and statements. He will go to his grave one day still feeling the same way...sad, but likely true. Who knows, maybe he'll make it his epitaph when the time comes, or give instructions for someone else to do so. Once a troll, always a troll.

    ***********************

    And that's that RE "Kaboom". A lot of assumptions being made about what I knew, what I cared about, etc. In plain English, I submitted a score to a referee, and it was there job to review and enter it. I could care less whether they did it right or wrong...I still have some missing scores that I discover from time to time that were never entered. It's too late now, it's 20+ years old, and I simply do not care...it is not important to me, I never said that it was. A few scores I care about, sure, but the vast majority, probably 95% of them, if they were entered correctly, great, and if not, so be it. And that's that.

    ***********************
    Last edited by RTM; 06-21-2021 at 10:38 PM. Reason: Added clarification and intent in two sections. then added section (E) in response to another claim made against me
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  2. 06-22-2021, 07:12 AM
    not sure if you're aware, the kaboom dispute is inactivated, not accepted, what that means is, unlike the todd or billy dispute theres no need for a post verdict and comments can be added there. of course maybe you prefer add it here where you can edit comments later and would rather keep your answers out of the official thread. I know you also enjoy how many views you get from starting redundant forum posts but if you want this part of the permanent record and not forgotten with the other forum posts thats where it should be. note, this isnt me telling what you to do, this is me having some conscience and feeling the need to let you know just in case you honestly wanted this part of the record and isnt just view/like farming
    Lode Runner champ, also, Roy was right
  3. 06-22-2021, 08:44 AM
    Quote Originally Posted by RTM View Post
    Going against what I said earlier just to open this thread and have one last say now that all the needless speculation has finished.

    One of the final comments in the thread..."Funny how that works, eh? One of his most prized achievements has been in the database with a wrong date for almost 20 years and it isn't til now that he is willing to correct it. Then again he probably didn't see much of a problem when his score was listed as the first ever so no need to correct that. Also funny how how all of these glitches, mishaps, score entry errors, etc all 100% of the time benefit the gamer rather than not."

    My reply to that.

    (A) whoever said this was one of my "most prized achievements" ? I had already done it decades prior...just as I did for "Chopper Command", and although I never duplicated it again, for "Laserblast". These are not "prized achievements" EDIT - and if I ever did, really, so what ? I know a couple of scores that I am now most proud of, but perhaps at some point Kaboom was...I've done a lot more better achievements since then, although some of my older ones like "Montezuma's Revenge" for the CV, THAT is one that I consider to be a "prized achievement"

    (B) whoever said that I was aware of the date to begin with ? Outside of my "Star Wars" arcade achievement I cannot at this very moment remember any specific dates of ANY of my achievements both past and present. The year perhaps, and in some cases the month (such as the Summer Console championship scores from Apr/2001-Jun/2001, but not the specific dates. But back to the statement made...at what point did I even say I was aware of the date ? EDIT - pre-dispute if what I mean

    A lot of scores were imported from the old Snipercade site as well as from the Cubeman site for MAME. No one checked the dates. The original files were huge text files without even the benefit of columns...just careful spacing for sake of alignment. If the two referees in question made a date mistake in their data file, that is likely what was carrier over into the TG database...and actually that is incorrect as Longridge never even HAD dates in his MAME database so the date of the import was likely doubling as both the entry date and the validation date.

    There was never any "edit reports" of scores entered for approval review...security allowed referees to both enter and submit directly into the database. And even after self-entry was eliminated, that capacity to simultaneously enter and submit still was the business model.

    These arguments and speculations are over what things should have been...I'm telling you the way that they actually were. Backseat driving after two decades cannot change the fact that the original TG...the one from 1981-1987...set the tone. But there was no computer back then, only pen and paper. In the 1996 range when the company's second incarnation began, or 1995 (I really am unsure as I only joined TG online after the Book came out), THAT incarnation had a team of people and absolutely zero proofreading control.

    Back in that era mistakes were made the likes of which you have never seen before. Six billion on arcade "Star Wars" being one of them. Tens of thousands of scores imported from unverifiable databases or those without scrutiny in the era of the Game Genie/Pro-Action Reply devices. Scores culled from "TG Affiliates" based on the arcade manager's word alone. Scores taken directly from the default game leaderboards along with the actual leaderboard initials for the "submitter".

    The third incarnation of TG, after that team had left, featured point-of-entry access only...in other words, only Walter could enter scores, period, and the backlog was astounding save for the off-site Snipercade and MAME scoreboards which did not have those constraints.

    To alleviate the ever growing backlog of both scores, variations, titles and even platforms, ACCESS.MDB database entry was created which allowed for imports, initially of platforms, titles and variations, and somewhat later the scores. But again, there was no double-checking by anyone. The same grassroots/small-staff approach that TG originally had more than a decade prior had returned...the "staff" you could count on one hand at one point, and that included Board of Directors member Billy Mitchell who did nothing at all with database entry assistance.

    As scores were entered the backlog was being chipped away at. No one, and I mean NO one from the staff at the time had the bandwidth to re-check what was being entered. If a score from Funspot's 1999 event was entered as July 1999 instead of the actual event date, then that's what entered the TG database. But while it was expected for each referee to "proofread" their entry screen before hitting submit...or the ACCESS.MDB upload file...I did not check if Ron did for his own, he did not check my work, etc. And Walter did not check anyone's entries.

    On occasion a gamer would write in with a mistake made and it would be fixed, but overall if the gamer did not catch it, neither did we. Same goes especially for our own scores. I have a "Scramble" arcade record (at the time) from I think 2001, but don't ask me to recite the actual score or the date...I know it was May/01 and 1.1M-something, that's about it. I don't even know my precise SW arcade score other than 300 million and 7K and change...could be 300,007,584 and I'd have to assume it was correct. These scores are two decades old and then some...I do NOT remember the details and most gamers don't. Some maintained meticulous records, but most did not. And the overwhelming majority never wrote back to TG asking for data entry corrections that they spotted.

    (C) you say I "did not have a problem" seeing my score was listed as first-ever...again, you assume I even knew that it was. You forget that Todd's scores were removed and he very well might have had a max score. I cannot be sure of any others removed, but I never gave my "being first" a passing thought as I never bothered to check the score's accuracy in terms of the date. I never cared to, and never will. Don't care about the date of my "Chopper Command" score either, of that for "Keystone Kapers"...these are nearly 20 year old scores and I have far more important matters to concern myself with now.

    (D) mishaps ALWAYS benefitting the gamer ? You seem to forget how every single ACAM score on "Indiana Jones" set at Funspot was deleted from the database after it was discovered that their machine had one of the settings incorrect and one extra life was being awarded. No one complained when the scores were removed, they simply were. Same for the incorrect settings on "Night Driver" (MAME) which originally blocked gamers from getting an extended play.

    (E) Another gamer suggested that I had been in control of the Atari 2600 upload, referring to my "Enduro" score and the ones truncated.

    Corcoran was removed from TG in Feb/04 - https://www.twingalaxies.com/showthr...o-Ron-Corcoran

    Thus he was part of TG when all those Enduro scores and other titles were imported into the TG database. While I handled the import of Longridge's MAME scores, Corcoran would have handled the Atari scores. His database, his import.

    My own score, which someone claims "benefited" by a truncation of selected other scores, had nothing to do with that mistake...NOR was it an impressive score, so clearly this person's bandwagon agenda is going to continue on and on. Expect another such score challenge to come based on similarly flimsy "evidence".

    And finally, ONE axe-to-grind gamer seems to believe that this score is my "Scarlet Letter". Funny how it's him who says this considering one of his many pet peeves against me is his rejected "Asteroids" marathon in which he tried to submit on a non-original boardset going thru Walter but without giving him ALL the facts on how this boardset behaved. His submission was rejected by the Board of Referees and rightly so. I'd says that has been HIS "Scarlet Letter" for a good 20 years now.

    But he can say and believe whatever he wants...I could care less about him or his antics, beliefs and statements. He will go to his grave one day still feeling the same way...sad, but likely true. Who knows, maybe he'll make it his epitaph when the time comes, or give instructions for someone else to do so. Once a troll, always a troll.

    ***********************

    And that's that RE "Kaboom". A lot of assumptions being made about what I knew, what I cared about, etc. In plain English, I submitted a score to a referee, and it was there job to review and enter it. I could care less whether they did it right or wrong...I still have some missing scores that I discover from time to time that were never entered. It's too late now, it's 20+ years old, and I simply do not care...it is not important to me, I never said that it was. A few scores I care about, sure, but the vast majority, probably 95% of them, if they were entered correctly, great, and if not, so be it. And that's that.

    ***********************
    Once again you write a mini novel and still avoid the two questions I have asked in multiple threads in the past including the dispute. Who verified the score and was it submitted via tape or done live?
  4. 06-22-2021, 10:49 AM
    Quote Originally Posted by Ninglendo View Post
    Once again you write a mini novel and still avoid the two questions I have asked in multiple threads in the past including the dispute. Who verified the score and was it submitted via tape or done live?
    yes glen you have, which is why there is one point of his i'll adress here, but if he wants to waste my time in another thread going nowhere he needs to do it in the official thread

    he makes the point he cant be bothred to check up on his scores and all these errors that magically benefited him are rons fault

    well, ok, its true you cant spend your life constatnly checking if a database error slipped in, but i'd like to point out the kaboom dispute started a year ago, and threads like this where he argued with us over his kaboom score were 6 months ago https://www.twingalaxies.com/showthr...38#post1103238

    yet its only when i finally provided the wayback machine proof that he was willing to acknolwedge the date is fake. so he's known about this fake date for at least 6 months due to his arguments about it, likely a year due to the dispute its pretty clear he follows new disputes, but fine i cant prove he knew any longer than that. so at best its pretty insincere to pretend he didnt speak up cause he didnt know. he knew, and only spoke up when he realize wayback machine had the proof
    Lode Runner champ, also, Roy was right
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  5. 06-22-2021, 12:15 PM
    Quote Originally Posted by Ninglendo View Post
    Once again you write a mini novel and still avoid the two questions I have asked in multiple threads in the past including the dispute. Who verified the score and was it submitted via tape or done live?


    RTM REPLY - I have said as much in posts over the years as well as divulging privately to Jace and he can confirm this...

    -> with the exception of two Atari 2600 scores, every single one of my submissions was done on VHS and submitted to Corcoran, and this includes all Snipercade console deca events AND the Atari 2600 time deca which I conducted but submitted to Ron anyway as I did not so much as own a Polaroid camera with which to take the pictures in 2001-2002. The two exceptions are whatever I scored at the ACAM 2001/2002 event in the cabin as witnessed at the time by Todd Rogers on "Threshold" and "Death Trap" as we were both playing these two in the cabin after hours. Not even sure the scores are in the TG database but look them up if you wish.
  6. 06-22-2021, 12:23 PM
    As for Rosa's last response...call it "insincere", but it's more than that...it is no longer on my radar, period. I simply do not care one way or the other of Corcoran (or any other referee) screwed up the data entry on any of my scores from 15-23 years ago.

    Tell me why you feel that a gamer HAS to be "sincere" about the details that are more than a generation old ?

    I participated in the 1980 or 1981 Atari 2600 "Space Invaders" championship in NYC along with at least 500-1000 other kids, and if I saw a news clipping that said my best score was 7000 points versus what I knew I got (around 12-15K on my 2nd attempt, the other was my 1st attempt), what would you have me to do about that in the here and now ? That's 40 years ago...and in 17 years so will my earliest console scores submitted to TG (although most if not all have since been beaten). If I don't care about them now I SURELY won't care about the details 17 years from now.

    This is not a matter of being simply "insincere" about my scores. I've moved on...I no longer submit ANY scores, nor will I again, and you sir are part of the reason why.
  7. 06-22-2021, 12:32 PM
    Quote Originally Posted by RTM View Post
    RTM REPLY - I have said as much in posts over the years as well as divulging privately to Jace and he can confirm this...

    -> with the exception of two Atari 2600 scores, every single one of my submissions was done on VHS and submitted to Corcoran, and this includes all Snipercade console deca events AND the Atari 2600 time deca which I conducted but submitted to Ron anyway as I did not so much as own a Polaroid camera with which to take the pictures in 2001-2002. The two exceptions are whatever I scored at the ACAM 2001/2002 event in the cabin as witnessed at the time by Todd Rogers on "Threshold" and "Death Trap" as we were both playing these two in the cabin after hours. Not even sure the scores are in the TG database but look them up if you wish.


    I should clarify...I divulged to Jace that all my scores were VHS recorded...I neglected to tell him about those other two as they were not in my mind at the time when I wrote to Jace recently, but the two scores were both nominal in value, probably 32-45K on Threshold and I don't know, under 10-15K on the other. Not my best games.
  8. 06-22-2021, 12:50 PM
    Quote Originally Posted by RTM View Post
    RTM REPLY - I have said as much in posts over the years as well as divulging privately to Jace and he can confirm this...

    -> with the exception of two Atari 2600 scores, every single one of my submissions was done on VHS and submitted to Corcoran, and this includes all Snipercade console deca events AND the Atari 2600 time deca which I conducted but submitted to Ron anyway as I did not so much as own a Polaroid camera with which to take the pictures in 2001-2002. The two exceptions are whatever I scored at the ACAM 2001/2002 event in the cabin as witnessed at the time by Todd Rogers on "Threshold" and "Death Trap" as we were both playing these two in the cabin after hours. Not even sure the scores are in the TG database but look them up if you wish.

    Must be another coincidence. Also, why was the date changed to 2003 and now is changed to 2001?
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  9. 06-22-2021, 01:49 PM
    oh boy you're particularly insincerity i talked about was explicilty as well as contextually clearly about how you were pretending you didnt know about the backdating even though you very much did

    color me not surprised you're now insincere in discussing your insincerity and yet again try to deflect and misrepresent anything i say.

    but sure lets go with your deflection because i find it fascinating you wanna defend not being sincere about the score itself as if thats any better, thats worse. you do see how thats worse right?

    i do believe you stopped submitting because of me though, well me and others who actually expected you to follow the rules. As i recall you submitted under wrong settings -- can happen to anyone-- but when called it went on a huge tamper tantrum even saying anyone who would've rejected such a score would've been fired as a ref. I found that a truly fascinating slip, that bad scores didnt get into the database on accdeint but that refs would actually be fired for demanding people follow the rules, stunning. you were so upset you could no longer break the rules you stamped your feet out.

    you claim its cause i'm a troll while you start unofficial posts like this that you can later edit and serve no purpose but to troll. But that makes no senses. if you hated the arguments so much you could just submit and avoid forums, but you do the opposite. you stopped submitting and engage only in the trolling. Obviously i couldnt say anything negative if you submitted a valid performance, but thats just it, with me and others of like mind around invalid performances do get criticized. I'm sooooooo sorry i ruined your fun and you can no longer submit invalid scores (sarcasm).
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  10. 06-22-2021, 08:00 PM
    Not going to play your game, Rosa...this thread is post-dispute discussion RE the score in question. I am not going to fuel the fires of trolldom with further responses. All information has been divulged.

    Updike asked why the date was changed. I'm no longer a TG staffer, I do not control or participate in TG admin. Jace and his team have all the facts that I sent to Jace. Why not ask Jace why the date was changed ?

    That said, this thread may end up getting locked by TG admin if the bashing continues...that will be on your head if it does. I've taken the initiative to open the discussion, just as I did...for you...on Todd although you quickly turned that one, with help from your buddy, into bashing and got that one locked as well.

    Seems like the commonality here is the bashing...you can't quite seem to discuss without it. That's a character flaw in you.

    Balls in your court. The forum is open for your discussion. If you choose to squander it with bashing, conspiracy theories and whatnot, that's your business, but do not be surprised if it gets locked as a direct result.
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