Dispute: Hal1973 - M.A.M.E. - 1942 [Set 1] - Points [Two Player Team] - Player: Tim M Bergatron Brett S Elfenstein - Score: 1,754,470

Is this a valid dispute?

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  1. Dispute: Hal1973 - M.A.M.E. - 1942 [Set 1] - Points [Two Player Team] - Player: Tim M Bergatron Brett S Elfenstein - Score: 1,754,470

    11-20-2022, 12:02 PM
    M.A.M.E. - 1942 [Set 1] - Points [Two Player Team]
    Track
    https://www.twingalaxies.com/scores.php?scores=40873
    Rank

    Rules
    ROMSet: 0.106-0.124: 1942 - "1942 (set 1)"
    0.124u4-0.170: 1942a - "1942 (Revision A)"
    Bonus Life:20,000 80,000, 80,000k+
    Starting lives: 3
    Flip screen: Off
    Difficulty: Normal
    Freeze: Off
    Special Rules: This is a 2 Player Only Variation! Continues are NOT allowed! Both Players must start at the same time! The record is the sum of the 2 scores upon game completion.
    Player Name
    Tim M Bergatron Brett S Elfenstein
    Original Adjudication
    N/A
    Verification Method
    INP
    Verification Date
    2010-03-18
    Disputed Score
    1,754,470 (Rank 1)
    Disputed By
    Hal1973
    Dispute Evidence / Rationale
    The game does not allow two players to play on the same screen. Players take turns playing. Therefore, this requirement for two-player gaming is not met:Both Players must start at the same time!
  2. 11-27-2022, 09:17 AM
    This is not a clear issue and we would like the community to provide some additional thoughts here before we make a determination.


    1.) The intention of the track may be to simply measure a 2 player game and add the totals of player 1 and 2 together for a final score.


    2.) Given #1 - technically player 1 and player 2 "start" at the same time because both begin their opportunity to score after the 2 player game button has been pressed (which only occurs once) and started. So it can be argued that this is rules compliant.


    3.) The intention of point #1 is not in conflict with the rules that clearly state that the record is the SUM of the 2 scores upon game completion.


    As it currently stands, we are inclined to preserve this score and instead place additional clarification in the rules around the phrase "start at the same time" that help competitors understand that the alternating turns of player 1 and 2 is the desired intention for building toward the total score.


    Any additional thoughts would be helpful.


    Thank you!


    -TG
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  3. 11-28-2022, 03:25 AM
    All "two-player team" tracks are cooperative.Two players play simultaneously on the screen, working together.
    This game does not allow such cooperation.
    It is not logical to add up the points of two players who are each playing their own game.
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  4. 11-28-2022, 04:02 AM
    I'm inclined to agree with Twin Galaxies here as the game cannot be played in a "conventional simultaneous" method. If there are two credits inserted and the 2-Player game button is used, this is how the game intentional pans out a two-player game and the rules reflect that possibility. I agree it's not conventional but it looks like this is how the rules were designed.
    Lots of 1sts to be surpassed: what are you waiting for? Play the game, submit the score...
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  5. 11-28-2022, 04:05 AM
    Furthermore, the game ensures that the two players are playing at the same session: not simultaneous but they are in the same session. It is a minor distinction but this is different from two players who each have a single-credit game.
    Lots of 1sts to be surpassed: what are you waiting for? Play the game, submit the score...
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  6. 11-28-2022, 06:55 AM
    Quote Originally Posted by Barthax View Post
    Furthermore, the game ensures that the two players are playing at the same session: not simultaneous but they are in the same session. It is a minor distinction but this is different from two players who each have a single-credit game.
    The game doesnt have 2 player?

    https://youtu.be/K1zRKoX9MuA?t=18

    The track rule says "This is a 2 Player Only Variation!" I am given to believe there is a version. The arcade version which you are referring to the Capcom Arcade where Player 1 starts and Player 2 can join in via coin; IE Player 2 must wait for Player 1 to load into the game. https://youtu.be/kdICR49vbvg Capcom Arcade version is what the tracks photo is from, but the score mentioned might be the NES version or a different version altogether. Which would mean a denied dispute and the track moved.

    However; The depends on if Twin Galaxies has any record of this to view and take a look.

    I'm at an honest 50/50 on this dispute;
    My reason being not enough public information to go on, The track rules are a bit strange on the wording, It may or may not actually be the aforementioned WolfMame Version, but the main reason as I said was the wording. Specifically "Both Players must start at the same time!"
    Now what I am asking is a pretty simple question and that is reserved for Twin Galaxies and no one else as I don't care for the answer of another on this. My question is what defines "Both players must start at the same time!" is it sitting together in a room at the start of the first input and being ready and together for the entirety of the run. (IE No on walks away till finished.) OR Both their "characters/guys/girls/jets/vehicles/insertjokehere/monopoly piece" at the start and move together at the same time.

    This dispute borders on if their moving together at the same time rather than confirming that. This is also INP, so the track input at the time may have been really shitty and poorly described which is mainly why I don't just say this is an accepted dispute either.
  7. 11-28-2022, 08:28 AM
    Quote Originally Posted by Maris Memes View Post
    The game doesnt have 2 player?

    https://youtu.be/K1zRKoX9MuA?t=18
    18 seconds in & there's an option for 2 Players. As I stated above, they do not play simultaneously but it does enable player two and they take turns. The rules state the combination of both players at their conclusion. So this is not "traditional simultaneous" 2 player because the game does not support that but it is two players in the same session taking turns. Just because something is not traditional does not mean it cannot be tracked.
    Lots of 1sts to be surpassed: what are you waiting for? Play the game, submit the score...
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  8. 11-28-2022, 10:20 AM
    This score tracker is an abomination, and ought to have been aborted, shortly after conception.

    Get rid of it, and every other similar travesty.

    The whole point of a 'two player' game is competition, not teamwork.

    Adding two competing scores together, and calling it a 'team score', is beyond idiotic.

    This score is not worth preserving. Competing scores belong on separate rungs of a scoreboard.

    I'll close by pointing out what ought to be obvious: "two player team" means two players, playing simultaneously, not taking turns.



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  9. 11-29-2022, 10:30 PM
    Quote Originally Posted by Almighty Dreadlock View Post
    I'll close by pointing out what ought to be obvious: "two player team" means two players, playing simultaneously, not taking turns.
    This definition would suggest that a two man relay race team is not a team - Where one team member runs the first lap, and then passes the baton to the next team member who then runs the final lap. Their times are essentially combined to be one time.


    The way that this track seems to be set up may be reasonably argued to be that kind of team structure.


    Food for thought.
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  10. 11-29-2022, 11:38 PM
    Quote Originally Posted by Jace Hall View Post
    This definition would suggest that a two man relay race team is not a team

    Nope. A relay race is a simultaneous effort by the team members. In order to make an optimal baton pass, the giver and receiver must run at approximately the same speed, for a short period of time. So, there is clear overlap of effort, even though the task is split.

    A relay race is successfully run, when all the team members make a full contribution to the overall effort. In a 'two player' game, one player does not contribute to the other's game, thus the players cannot be referred to as teammates.

    I say, again: 'two player' games are not team games.

    Get rid of this track, score, and notion.



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