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Snowflake
07-21-2019 at 06:32 PM
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Possible enhancment to make tg more welcoming

So, in controverial setting (understandable) the topic of women in gaming have come up, but usually comes in a way that gets contentious. I'd like to start fresh on this just focused on subject itself

now, before i continue two points so i dont get misread
1. i fully understand resources are limited and everyone has a million ideas for enhancements, so i'm just putting this idea out there and totally get it if the resources dont exist
2. i am NOT in favor of censorship, however i do think we can sometimes adress the concerns censorship tries to adress without actually censoring

in particular, the games i find most offensive, and I think TG only tracks two of them, is where the center and main focus of the game is the rape of women. I"m guessing that word is censored out, so tg censors the word for such a heinous sex crime yet make no efforts towards the game play itself. I would like to see a rating sytem. let people choose their own filter where they dont see the most adult themed games. I totally get offense is subjective, so i have no intention to get into "but you're ok with murder games why not this". i mean yes i have an answer why the two are different, but i know where the arguments leads. I think we can at least agree some of the most extremly offensive stuff isnt stuff everyone wants to see, and a filter for such things might be good

i might even suggest the most heinous games by default are filtered to not show up at all, though i know that becomes almost semantics with censorship at that piont, so just putting the idea out there

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  1. Rogerpoco's Avatar

    Y'know, I'm gonna throw something philosophically whacky into this, because it has kinda stumped me for a while.


    First, I am a little bit Indian-not sure how much, not sure what Tribe/Nationality, but I certainly have slightly above average American Indian bloodline, I'm not making this comment to make fun, just making it to have fun.


    Anyway-2600 Custer's Revenge is much maligned, which would be fair if it were for the gameplay, it kinda sucks, but it's considered racist by a lot of peoples.


    Huge, wide open desert.

    Indian males shooting arrows at the wrinkly white dude, trying to keep him from getting to the Indian Maiden.

    Fact is-she's just standing there, has every option to turn and run away while she has cover from the onslaught of arrows.


    So my opinion is that they were trying to hook up, being intolerated, and standing up for their right to...well, you know, with whomever they chose.


    The game is nasty, and again, isn't so good-but there aren't a lot of holes in my explanation, the game isn't racist at all, in fact it almost stands against it...

    :P

  2. Snowflake's Avatar

    roger i believe you are incorrect, though i'll admit for that particular title its not as explicit, consider this
    1. its his "revenge", even in the most acceptable possibiliites, he's still using a woman just for revenge, you'd have to grant me that having sex with a woman for the sole purpose of getting revenge is at a minimum emotionally abusive and disresepctful
    2. it mentions she wont "take it lying down", that seems to imply shes not ok with it, but maybe its just a pun saying shes standing up
    3. i cant prove she's tied up, you cant prove she can get away, but fine, that just means we dont know eithe way
    4. it mentions "help is on the way" and immediatley goes on to explain how you'll have to dodge arrows. consiering thats being called "help", fine we can argue possible interpertation, but if the arrows are "helping" that sure implies to me the advance is unwanted


    most importantly though, all that aside, with any of these games my concern isnt violence, or even racism, my concern is sexism. thats not to say sexism is worse, its just to say i think its more concerning in the context of video game culture. I'm not to worried about violent fights breaking out at a mortal kombot tournament. I'm not to worried about racism getting out of control either. I absolutely think sexism is a problem though, at least in 2019 it is.

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  3. Snowflake's Avatar

    on second though, look at the photo right on the art. she's tied up. she cannot get away

    a tied up women, who cannot get away, while her tribe tries to "help" her


    all that said i'm not faulting your submission. i'm not asking the track be removed. i'm just suggesting theres some way to put rating warning on subs and tracks

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  4. Rogerpoco's Avatar

    Ugh, that is pretty bad boxart, I have to admit!

  5. Snowflake's Avatar

    Quote Originally Posted by Rogerpoco

    Ugh, that is pretty bad boxart, I have to admit!


    it just tells me you're so innocent and pure you couldnt even see it cause its so far removed from how you think :)

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  6. Madsandy's Avatar

    I do this not to attempt to dilute a major problem that we as modern society face today, but to prove that data and research needs to be collected before making conclusions, especially ones that might have far reaching consequences.

    Do note that the data that is presented is both hastily gathered and extremely incomplete, so if is any additional data that can be added to change the final logical outcome, by all means I invite the additional data to be placed in any future comments so that it may be included into the equation that i am about to present.


    From what you have said, there are 2 games that have this particular societal problem as their main theme. Custer's revenge has a total of 12 records that have been submitted for it since the game's inception on the TG platform. Extrapolating data from the TG leaderboards, the top 25 world record holders have approximately 37,545 1st place records as of this posting. WIth this, we can logically deduce that there are at least this many total records in the TG database, with the correct number most likely being magnitudes higher than that, making this an extremely conservative number. Now, if we assume that there are only 2 games that as stated are tracked on this platform that have this issue, and we will assume that the second game has twice as many records as the 1st game(I highly doubt the number would be greater than double, as I imagine there isn't a particularly large group that play these types of games) this makes a total of 36 records that have an issue. If we divide this number by 37,545, we get the presumed chance of someone seeing these records during the span of TG. This number is 0.09%. To put this into greater perspective, the average chance that someone is a victim of this problem in the US is .04%(This number is provided by a crime statistics analysis website that has a self proclaimed accuracy of 98%, so while I'm sure that this percentage isn't exact, it is more likely than not close enough for the purposes of this post).

    That means that with the given data, someone is only twice as likely to experience this problem in real life in a year's time span than they are to see a submission with that problem being the main focus of the game during the entirety of their time on TG. Keep in mind that the actual percentage of seeing a submission that contains this problem is likely far less, as I am sure there are more than 37,545 records total in the TG database.

    I personally don't believe that there is a large enough chance for someone that would be harmed from exposure to such a record stumbling upon such a record. Thus, I don't think that this particular problem warrants a change for the TG site. Once again, if anyone has any additional data that they would like to add, i would be more than welcome to update these statistics.



    TL;DR, Hastily done statistics show that this is almost definitely not an issue that comes up often enough to warrant a site change.

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  7. Madsandy's Avatar

    Correction to my above post. The data above is actually a .09% per submission that is viewed, not per year. I would still like to point out that this is still a very low number, especially considering how handicapped the data set is.

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  8. Snowflake's Avatar

    i dont think you can factually prove its not "enough to warrant a site change" so i disagree with phrasing it in way that describes opinion as fact, but i do respect your opinion and had no doubt when i wrote this thered be different opinions. in my opinion coming up just once is all it takes to warrant the change as just once is too much. i look not just at probabilty but also impact.

    we've have only had someone try to make a track that merges arcade and pc once for a particular title, yet despite only happening once thats a huge debate that people feel is worthwhile.

    that said, of course i recognize prioritization is important which is why i acknowledged limited resources.

  9. Snowflake's Avatar

    oh i do disagree with one of your numbers though. i would contend someone's chance of seeing such a submission at tg is much larger than you calculate. your numbers seen to be assuming in someones entire time at tg they only ever stumble upon one score. at that point yes, take the list of such scores, divide by total scores, and you have your chance of stumbling across such a score one time.

    Now though factor in we see 100s to 1000s of scores in adjudication, and even someone just submitting a one score sees a few dozens on accident while checking for thiers. point is, the number is a bit higher.


    now, i did adjudicate such scores, because again, i oppose censhorship. just pointing out that since we see so many scores, that while the probability of any one score being such a score is as low as you calculate, the probabilty that one of the 100s of scores we go through is eventually such one becomes signficantly higher.

    remember the formula for that is, you have to convert percentages to ratios (100%=1 50%=0.5), and then you have to invert. you have to cacluate the chance of not seeing such a submission time after time, so you're very high 99%+ chance of not seeing such a submission has to hppen 1000s of times in a row, so you have to put the .99+ number to the power of times you check. the result of that is truly the chance of never seeing at all. you then take 1- that, and finally mutiply by 100 to convert back


    i'll assume your .09% is correct, i didnt both to redo that portion. going with that, i for example have adjudicated 5000 scores, viewed many more, and i'm not even in the top 20 for that. so my probability [1-(1-.0009)^5000]*100%=[1-.001]*100%=99.9% which is why i'm familiar with that.

  10. sdwyer138's Avatar

    I can certainly appreciate your concerns on this subject, but your suggestion on adding filters seems to be a huge undertaking, and I feel there are more pressing problems that TG needs to fix.

    TG's job is tracking scores on games, not playing parent and deciding what games are or are not appropriate for the audience. There needs to be some amount of personal responsibility and knowledge of game content on the part of the members.

    Here are some of the challenges I see with adding a filter:

    -What is the filter based on? ESRB? TG's opinion on what is or isn't offensive? One or more members' opinion on what is or isn't offensive?

    -If it is based on ESRB, what about games released before ESRB or in other countries that use a different ratings standard.

    -Is the filter for any sexual content, or only sexual content that would be illegal if performed IRL

    -Is violence/gore included in the filter, since games can receive "mature" rating for that alone

    -Does the rating/filter apply to the game in general, or to the entire submission package? Examples: A) If you have seen submissions from myself, Brandon Finton, John Marks, others, you know we can be playing a "G" rated game but drop F bombs continuously. B) Depending on the objective of the track, it could be possible to have a completely "clean" game play on a game that includes mature content elsewhere in the game.

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  11. Snowflake's Avatar

    haha nice call out on the individuals. yeah all sorts of grey area. theres even old magazine articles talking about how playing berzerk wil create pscyopaths due to the lifelike violence -- hey, berzerk was lifelike violence compared to previous games.

    theres all sorts of grey area and room for opinion that i agree is a huge can of worms. esrb would at least remove our personal opinion, granted its using their opinion, but at least it gives a definite anaswer

    However yes, i was purposely limiting myself to just rape in this discussion, since even though i know its just a game and therefore open to opinion, that doesnt seem like a "where do you draw the line" thing ot me, that one seems a million miles away from any other line

  12. sdwyer138's Avatar

    Quote Originally Posted by Snowflake


    However yes, i was purposely limiting myself to just rape in this discussion


    Hot take: The characters in Custer's Revenge are simply role playing to spice things up a bit and are engaged in consensual behavior.

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  13. Snowflake's Avatar

    that would explain why the arrows never connect and theres so many oddities about the games physics

    it really is a very poorly made game. fyi, i do own a real copy. i'm really not trying to come off to high on mighty on this. i'm trying hard to get the tone right. if you saw my earlier post you'll see i recently picked up two other **** games as well, though those actually are consensual at least. I just think its an important discussion

  14. RTM's Avatar

    Disagree with "Madsandy"...just because a tiny fraction of the whole is problematic does not mean that it should be acceptable to discount the risk of the content being seen.

    YouTube has literally billions of videos but they have a team that actively seeks out certain specific videos which are quickly deleted...the tactic is is not foolproof but the intent is clear.

    There are a lot more games that contain offensive content as the primary goal of the game...this discussion has already taken place numerous times and it is inherently wrong to discount all but the category of "rape" as that shows an indifference and tolerance to all the rest of the offending categories out there which constitute the predominant point of a trackable game.

  15. Rogerpoco's Avatar

    This has gotten over my head.


    Still, if's and but's-

    But if they'd made the storyline the way I mistakenly interpreted it, Custer's would be "breakthrough", instead of "maligned".

    :D

  16. Snowflake's Avatar

    Quote Originally Posted by Rogerpoco

    This has gotten over my head.


    Still, if's and but's-

    But if they'd made the storyline the way I mistakenly interpreted it, Custer's would be "breakthrough", instead of "maligned".

    :D


    totally agreed roger. you know me, i love being simultaneously blunt loving offensive and logical. and yes, an interracial couple purposely having sex publicly just to offend the intolerant is totally my style. thats not what happened here, but if it did i'd be on board cheering it on with ya, you're a good guy

    However, it would never be haled as a breakthrough. the gameplay sucks way to bad to ever be loved.lets be honest, thats what offends us the most. sure, i can have moments of concern like now, but most of the time i'm just looking for a good time, and the bad game play is what really pisses me off about the game -- thats not to say i dont stand by my other poitns. i'm just being realistic and admitting i'm no hero. i spend way more time getting pissed off at bad movies and poorly done games than i do at things that actually matter.

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  17. Ninglendo's Avatar

    Personal opinion but I think it would be a waste of resources to make a filter for literally two games outta thousands on the scoreboard. If you don't like the content of the games you have the freedom and choice to not participate on those scoreboards.

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  18. Snowflake's Avatar

    Quote Originally Posted by RTM

    Disagree with "Madsandy"...just because a tiny fraction of the whole is problematic does not mean that it should be acceptable to discount the risk of the content being seen.

    YouTube has literally billions of videos but they have a team that actively seeks out certain specific videos which are quickly deleted...the tactic is is not foolproof but the intent is clear.

    There are a lot more games that contain offensive content as the primary goal of the game...this discussion has already taken place numerous times and it is inherently wrong to discount all but the category of "rape" as that shows an indifference and tolerance to all the rest of the offending categories out there which constitute the predominant point of a trackable game.


    as my other comments show i do agree even small amoungs matter. however i'm not tolerating or indifferent too other offenses so much as i'm tolerating and indifferent to fictional reenactmesn of them

    we all have different degrees to which can be influenced based not just on who we are but the subject matter

    i remember my paretns arguing over what we're allowed to watch. my father would forbid me from watching alf (dont worry as an adult i bought the dvds, cant stop me from watching such a fine show forever), yet he'd let me watch predator the same night. now that i'm older i get it. after watching predator there was zero chance my siblings and i would chase each other around with knives trying to kill each other, but there was a very strong change after watching alf we'd memorie the insults and mock each other

    Its about being resuls oriented. thats why i brought up not being concenred about fights breaking out a mortal kombat tournament. to me its not the content so much as the attitudes and what content reinforces those attitudes. when i see a prevalent attitude here that real life murder is ok, the way people think real life sexism is ok, then perhaps i'll rethink my stance on violent games as well.

  19. Madsandy's Avatar

    So there are 2 things that I would like to reiterate and reinforce.

    1. In my initial post I said that the chance that I had calculated was per the entirety of TG history. This was incorrect and I had said as much in my post immediately following that, stating that it was per submission view.

    2. The chance that I had calculated was to signify that there is AT MOST a .09% chance per submission, with the actual chance very likely being much, much lower. I also stated this in my post.

    My entire point is that if these 2 games are the only games that are problematic, then the chances of someone falling victim to the actual crime is probably much greater than someone stumbling upon these submissions.

    This is the data that i would ask from this point forward.

    -The total number of records in the TG database.

    -The total number of records that are problematic

    -The total number of submissions that the average user adjudicates.

    If I can acquire these 3 data points, I can almost invariably prove that this is almost definitely not worth TG time to even consider in this particular case.


  20. Snowflake's Avatar

    total numbers of records in the database i think we'd have to cacluate by hand, however, we can get totally tgsap, which may be more relevant snce thats more related to adjudication and what videos has public video

    total problematic i could probabily find with in 10 minutes, thats a number i could get, but i havent bothered because i think the more interesting question is ahead

    total number average user adjudicates, we can get the mean but i think that might be misleading even still, for the mean all you have to do is take total tgsap records (accept + rejected + currently in queue) and divide it by members

    what i find most interesting though is your final point. what in your opinion is the point at which something becomes worthwhile? in fact, i think it would be very important to answer this first, as it would be easy for bias to slip in and just after the fact pick a cutoff that gives us the answer we want. This is where i think the interesting discussion lies, in determining just what people consider to be worthwhile and not. i'm assuming the trade off takes into account the basic 4 things, how likely the problem is (that can be proven with math), how important the problem is (full of opinon of course, but this is what i'm most interesting on, since the answer to this is without doubt affect the decision so lets come out and state our assumed opinions instead of dancing around them), how likely the downside of fixing it is (pretty closer to 100% predicatlbe the cost i think, so i'll say easily fixing the problem will 100% chance use resources, i doubt there'll be argument here), and how painful that cost is (i'll be honest, i've been disappointed of all enhancements so far introducing bugs, so you'll be able to quite easily convince me the price of a fix is high).

    so if theres something besides those 4 points, please enlighten me, cause honeslty, thats the formula for everyting i do in life, if i'm missing another piece that would be very helpful for me to consider. assuming though you're considering the same attributes i'd really like to discuss how you weight the impact of those submissions and not just the probability

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