Snowflake's Feed

Snowflake
01-20-2020 at 01:51 PM
169 Comments
Rate this Entry

intellivision fix continued

continuing from this thread https://www.twingalaxies.com/intellivision-master/wall/7717/astrosmash-scores-must-be-removed-and-moved/page/3#comments which was meant to focus on astrosmash but really for consistency necessitates a larger discussion on intellivision fixes needed to rules. long story short, twin galaxies (not just on intlelivision) has sometimes changed rule (more than once) this creates an uneven playing field. Theres a need to try to fix the rules so that everyone plays under the same settings

some titles in particular that are most known in need of help are:

Brickout

Space Armada

Lock N Chase (I may have just added "look for a white dot" OR I added also "Start on Disc Speed" - I don't remember)

Shark ! Shark !

Night Stalker

Motocross

Astrosmash

Auto Racing

Skiing

personal note: i would also like to discuss beauty and the beast as theres an exteremly obvious easy to do leeching tactic the rules ignore which can happen on accident so tough to outlaw, yet the rules talk about a hard to do leeching tactic explicitly that will likely never be used. This makes me think the ref creating the track had no clue on the game and makes me fear the verifying refs were equally clueless -- though i hope not since the only hope here is a ref who was knowledgable to fill us in --- and the more troublesome leeching tactic could've been used. basically you can purposely fall of an easy building to lose one life, but then climb it to gain 2 lives. if theres anyway to find out if the top scores used such a tactic -- even if they only used it once or twice on accident i would really like to know.

Comments
  1. Intellivision Master's Avatar

    I'm confused. Why do these need help?

    I just looked up the arcade Tapper score. There's 7 scores that are done differently; there are also very VERY specific rules that probably were not there when the other 7 played it AND there's a NEW rule that says Budweiser.

    So if we're going to screw with tracks that I played, let's go through EVERY game and track at TG ... and why start on Intellivision?

  2. Snowflake's Avatar

    This was your list that I cut and paste that you asked me to make a post for. I’m not understanding what your sarcasm is meant to imply

  3. Snowflake's Avatar

    oh i see whats happening the good faith effort to review the decision in full context is already being abandoned now that i agreed to your proposal.

    very well lets give a history lesson

    the reason for the change was on a wall post of Al that seems to be delted, and was heavily edited before being deleted. Al took advantage of cave's enormous incompetance. dave's team would immediatley make any changes any user requested only to sometimes have other users come in and counter request. The "official" debate on intellivision took place on al's wall where he had admin ability over his own posts. 'default" was changed to "disc" speed despite me swaggers and others pointing out theres no evidence the old players ued disc speed. Al inissted it should be disc speed and had the rules changed over all objections and over all historical evidence

    now, al sees his rule change hurt him and is reversing course on a single track. to support your claim al we already found ron wanted all things on easy when he was running things, so yes, all track -- not just the one you cant beat -- should go back to easy except in course of cases where all players really did play on disc speed.

    good for you, you're a good enough player, that even though others payed on speed 3 you beat their score anyway on disc, thats plenty to brag about and you deserve congratulations. but to only want the speed 3 tracks reverted back to original easy/players choice rules when you found you couldnt beat the level 3 scores is inconsistent.


    why is this about intellivions? because you made a wall post to screw up the intellivsion a few years ago with dave followed by a wall post this week to fix it only in the place that benefits you.

  4. Snowflake's Avatar

    and on a personan note i must say if you took this attitue right away i actually would've backed down cause i was in no more mood for fights at tg. i was gonna leave my quick comment and be done. but you came off as fair promised good faith, lulled me into believing you were sincere. so now that iput that efort in, yeah i'm a little more angry than i would've been otherwise

    seriously man, if you were a dick from the beginnig i would've shut up and walked away. but pretneding to be nice and wasting my time only to turn immediatley is totally uncalled for.

  5. Intellivision Master's Avatar

    I was just making a point.

    Take Brickout ... there's 4 contestants. All played disc level. the track says "use disc". So why is this game on your list?

    If you wouldn't mind explaining if there's a specific problem on a specific game instead of generalizing that 9 titles on Intellivision have to be disbanded like "we have a problem on these titles".

    For example: in a REALLY round-about way (my fault) ... I said on Astrosmash, the 4.2 MILL was not done on disc .. and I suspect the next 4 scores as well. That was my beef on the track.

    Can you be specific? Because I don't think it's an epidemic. There's maybe a score on one or two of those tracks that need to be moved and that's it.


  6. Snowflake's Avatar

    the simplest answer is i cut and paste and your list. if i misinterperted your comment there or your comment here i apologize

    the more complicated answer is based on eveners research. and honestly i really dont blame you, you'll notice in the other thread i tried to phrase things far more diplomatically. it was totally dave's fault for not verifying user suggestions. the change should have never been made in the first place. my issue then was, it was a guess, possibly a good guess but a guess. now with eveners research we know it wasnt even a good guess, it was likely the wrong guess. yes, it was an epidemic of dave's team haphazardly changing rules. not to name anyone else, but when someone else tried to muck up mame there were enough users to speak up and stop it. with intelliviions though you're the mian player, so yes you're suggestions stayed whereas the other places were prevented or reverted.

    let me try it with a question. knowing everything you know now, do you really think something that said default should have been changd to discspeed? if your answer is yes, please explain. if your answer is no, then why wouldnt you want the changes reverted?

    LikesThe Evener liked this post
  7. Snowflake's Avatar

    there actually was one inconsitency with tapper fy. kelly tharp was forced to take a drug test for his marathon to count. i dont believe anyone before or after him did though. theres sure no way they drug tested ron or todds marathons either. so in my opinion that was a case of kelly being screwed and not something that should apply to anyone. however, if tg wants to be ridiculous to bring back the drug testing rule for marathons that on them.

  8. The Evener's Avatar

    Quote Originally Posted by Snowflake
    let me try it with a question. knowing everything you know now, do you really think something that said default should have been changd to discspeed? if your answer is yes, please explain. if your answer is no, then why wouldnt you want the changes reverted?

    I understand that the original rule changes were made in good faith in an effort to clarify the meaning of "default," but I agree that they should be corrected in view of the Snipercade/TG information circa 1998-99. For example, I would invite @Rogerpoco to re-submit his rejected Astrosmash submission from 2017, as we know now that his interpretation of "default" = easiest was in keeping with the definition employed at the track's foundation and his own suspicion given Fothergill's score. I will fund a track if Glen and Garrett wish to move their submissions to one that aligns with their game set-up - or if they wish to compete again on this title, then their newer (presumably) higher score on the clarified default settings will eclipse their existing one.

    We also know from Voodoo Chilly's post that early TG also developed variations where "default" wasn't the set-up for tracks like Auto Racing. I'm sure there are many other examples, but the first step should be to acknowledge that default reversion is merited in a number of cases.


    ThanksSnowflake, Rogerpoco thanked this post
    LikesRogerpoco, Barthax liked this post
    Updated 01-20-2020 at 08:39 PM by The Evener
  9. swaggers's Avatar

    I think this is the issue:


    Quote Originally Posted by Snowflake

    Al do you have a list of all games were "default" was changed to disc speed? also do you have a list of specific titles youd like to look at

    I believe the list @Intellivision Master posted is just a list of games he believes were changes to disc speed. NOT a list of titles that need to be looked at. Al will have to confirm.



    ThanksSnowflake thanked this post
  10. The Evener's Avatar

    Were these changes to default conducted on a title by title basis per request, or was it more akin to a global "find and replace" of "default" to "default is disc?" If it was a title by title request, can that list be reposted? Then a review could be done to assess the scope of present "historical" scores and if a reversion is merited.

  11. Intellivision Master's Avatar
    For Brickout, Motocross, Auto Racing and Skiing: All scores in the database were done on Disc level.


    So if folks' objective here genuinely is trying to preserve someone's historical score then these games should remain “Disc Level” as there are no historical scores on these games.
  12. Snowflake's Avatar

    Al other than your guess what evidence do you have for your claim. The only difference I see is you declare all scores you beat must be disc but all scores that beat you must be speed 3. A rules change was made by Dave on your input. You ask us for proof to revert the change yet we’re was your proof for change in the first place.


    For Jason’s question no it wasn’t case by case al requested the change as almost a global rule for intellivision and Dave granted it over several people’s objections

    Again al if you can prove the scores were disc speed I’ll support you in keeping your rule change I agree in consistency.


    In cases of no proof either way though we really should go with what the historical rule was

  13. Snowflake's Avatar

    actually you know, we're busy arguing over should, when jace is in charge. all we can do is present what is. we've both made our sides clear.

    @Jace Hall now that you know daves' team went around hapharzadly changing rules based on user requests with no evidence whats your stance on that? Do we need proof the rule change was wrong to revert it, or is proof needed the rule change was right to keep it? your database, your choice. You did alot with disputes to clean the database up from prior admins, it'd be shame if you let dave's reign of terror go uncorrected as those boys did ALOT of damage

  14. Snowflake's Avatar

    al, in the meantime, i've changed my stance on the all or nothing, my only concern on all orn othing was that smaller issues would be forgoten. now that this has become a full blown argument its clear to me the conerns arent going to be forgotten

    I suggest you submit your astrosmash score on speed 3 and give adjudicators the full explanation. i actually do still agree on reverting the rules for that one, i just also still think all daves **** ups should be undone. the best thing jace did on his return was unban the people dave banned, remove daves toxic comments teasing users, and now its time to finish the reversion of daves acts.

    you submit the astrosmash score on speed 3 and i wont derail the discussion with these concerns of other games i really do support your endeavor there

  15. lexmark's Avatar

    Quote Originally Posted by Snowflake



    @Jace Hall now that you know daves' team went around hapharzadly changing rules based on user requests with no evidence whats your stance on that?

    Like he did with a MAME game that I won't mention. Even though the evidence strongly suggested that it shouldn't be changed!


    john


    .

  16. Jace Hall's Avatar

    Quote Originally Posted by Snowflake

    actually you know, we're busy arguing over should, when jace is in charge. all we can do is present what is. we've both made our sides clear.

    @Jace Hall now that you know daves' team went around hapharzadly changing rules based on user requests with no evidence whats your stance on that? Do we need proof the rule change was wrong to revert it, or is proof needed the rule change was right to keep it? your database, your choice. You did alot with disputes to clean the database up from prior admins, it'd be shame if you let dave's reign of terror go uncorrected as those boys did ALOT of damage

    Honestly, I'm not trying to overthink it. I just want the track rules to make sense for the current participants as well as the historical ones.

    I don't know all the specifics of Dave's various changes, but I'm sure he was just trying to do the best he could given whatever input he was provided. Nothing bad intended.

    Obviously I'm a different person and may look at things differently. I prefer to look at things case by case, to make sure that the right decision is being made based on the specific circumstances of that case.

    So in regard to Astrosmash specifically, what has been the consensus? It's been hard to follow.

  17. Snowflake's Avatar

    Jace the reason you dont know the specifics is because dave left behind no documentation for his changes. Yes, on astrosmash i do agree wit al to revert the change. i also understand special circumstances can arise and things should be case by case, but here you knwo with astrosmash a change was made that was wrong. you know it was made as part of a poorly (zero) researched change under dave. the intellivison rules were chaned en masse to so that all "default" would be changed to "disc speed". you know from the eveners research that the rules used to be easiest with the caveat players could play harder (so net result users choice). if we do things case by case, all those cases will be identical. the only difference in the cases is arguments among users on whats wanted, but the objective facts are the same on all tracks

    are you really ok leaving an en mass change that was done with no documentation or research when you know what the original rules and you know that the rule change was made under your ownership? is that really the legacy you want left?

  18. Snowflake's Avatar

    Al, Jace, what about this for a compromise. leave the tracks that al wants to say discspped as discspeed, but at least provide proper documeantion. dave (or his team i dont know who made the change personally) only left notes in the rule box for date of change. simply add the proper notes that the rules used to allow for users choice. thats really all i care about. i dont wanna play on speed 3. i dont think most people want to. but people should know what the rules used to be under all prior ownerhips before they were changed under tgsap.

  19. Jace Hall's Avatar

    Quote Originally Posted by Snowflake

    Al, Jace, what about this for a compromise. leave the tracks that al wants to say discspped as discspeed, but at least provide proper documeantion. dave (or his team i dont know who made the change personally) only left notes in the rule box for date of change. simply add the proper notes that the rules used to allow for users choice. thats really all i care about. i dont wanna play on speed 3. i dont think most people want to. but people should know what the rules used to be under all prior ownerhips before they were changed under tgsap.

    If you could specifically list the text that you would like me to include, and where (links) that would be helpful and appreciated.

  20. Snowflake's Avatar

    night stalker is already good, and would be an example of how i think rule changes should go

    notice how it states what the change was - adding disc speed.


    astrosmash however is a huge problem because although it had the same change the notes only say a change was made wihtout saying what it was

    skiing is worst of all with no indication a change was ever made


    I trust Al that the list in the original post is the list of all tracks that were updated. Even though i disagreed with changing the rules, i would hope we can all agree that rule changes should be documented and I would like them to all look like the nightstalker example.


    can wayback machine find wall posts? maybe Al's post where dave agreed to make the changes can be dug up as round about documentation so that you can have confidence that your properly documentation dave's changes.

Page 1 of 9 1 2 3 ... LastLast
Join us