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Snowflake
01-20-2020 at 01:51 PM
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intellivision fix continued

continuing from this thread https://www.twingalaxies.com/intellivision-master/wall/7717/astrosmash-scores-must-be-removed-and-moved/page/3#comments which was meant to focus on astrosmash but really for consistency necessitates a larger discussion on intellivision fixes needed to rules. long story short, twin galaxies (not just on intlelivision) has sometimes changed rule (more than once) this creates an uneven playing field. Theres a need to try to fix the rules so that everyone plays under the same settings

some titles in particular that are most known in need of help are:

Brickout

Space Armada

Lock N Chase (I may have just added "look for a white dot" OR I added also "Start on Disc Speed" - I don't remember)

Shark ! Shark !

Night Stalker

Motocross

Astrosmash

Auto Racing

Skiing

personal note: i would also like to discuss beauty and the beast as theres an exteremly obvious easy to do leeching tactic the rules ignore which can happen on accident so tough to outlaw, yet the rules talk about a hard to do leeching tactic explicitly that will likely never be used. This makes me think the ref creating the track had no clue on the game and makes me fear the verifying refs were equally clueless -- though i hope not since the only hope here is a ref who was knowledgable to fill us in --- and the more troublesome leeching tactic could've been used. basically you can purposely fall of an easy building to lose one life, but then climb it to gain 2 lives. if theres anyway to find out if the top scores used such a tactic -- even if they only used it once or twice on accident i would really like to know.

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  1. Snowflake's Avatar

    Quote Originally Posted by Intellivision Master
    EVERYONE MUST AGREE.
    among the other false statements this is the only one i will continue to deal with. no al i never said everyone msut agree, just the opposite. totally agree to disagree. as such there is no consensus.
  2. Intellivision Master's Avatar
    It's just one sided.


    Here come the insults again!!


    “I” insult as a default? Look at all the things you just posted.


    Regardless...


    I'm too classy to engage in a war of insults with you. I won't do it.


    I don't care about anyone's scores or being beaten. All I ever wanted to do is compete against a genuine, proven scoreboard.


    Change every track to “choose your speed”.


    I guess it's just simple to you for 100 scores to be duplicated on to the new “Disc Speed” tracks that will be added.


    This makes no sense to me.
  3. Intellivision Master's Avatar
    Do you not see Swagger's regularly scheduled monthly insults thrown at me?


    As if anyone would care if they had 145/155 high scores or 144/155 high scores.


    You guys work this out. I won't be continuing on this blog and I don't have the time.


    I've voiced my opinions.


    Ciao !!!
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  4. The Evener's Avatar

    Intellivision Master, setting aside the immediate discussion for a moment --

    In 2027/2018 you advocated to clarify for gamers the definition of "default" on Intellivision tracks. We confirmed via the Wayback Machine that submissions were adjudicated under a definition of default that was based on tracking "easiest" settings since submissions were being verified by photo. That default didn't preclude people submitting on a harder setting though, so in essence it was "difficulty is player choice." Because submissions began with photos, it was impossible in most cases to police a track at a higher difficulty since someone sneaky could just submit a score at an easier setting but claim it was actually done at the harder one. That's why things were set at the "easy" default - no one could undercut another player, but a player could (at least claim to) submit at a harder setting to have double bragging rights if they secured top spot.

    All of that to say - all the "default" tracks you submitted are a mix of difficulties based on the governing rules. None of them can be confirmed to be purely of one difficulty unless there's a track with just TGSAP scores that we can verify are at the same settings. The rule reversion we're talking about therefore is explicitly acknowledging how TG defined "default" for submission purposes. If we kept things on "disc=default," it wouldn't change the fact that Intellivision tracks you've submitted to are comprised of scores based settings that are below "disc."

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    Updated 01-23-2020 at 12:54 PM by The Evener
  5. Intellivision Master's Avatar
    I honestly don't care anymore.


    You're asking my opinion, but no one listens anyway.


    You guys just work it out.




    Quote Originally Posted by The Evener
    Intellivision Master, setting aside the immediate discussion for a moment --
    In 2027/2018 you advocated to clarify for gamers the definition of "default" on Intellivision tracks. We confirmed via the Wayback Machine that submissions were adjudicated under a definition of default that was based on tracking "easiest" settings since submissions were being verified by photo. That default didn't preclude people submitting on a harder setting though, so in essence it was "difficulty is player choice." Because submissions began with photos, it was impossible in most cases to police a track at a higher difficulty since someone sneaky could just submit a score at an easier setting but claim it was actually done at the harder one. That's why things were set at the "easy" default - no one could undercut another player, but a player could (at least claim to) submit at a harder setting to have double bragging rights if they secured top spot.
    All of that to say - all the tracks you submitted are a mix of difficulties based on the governing rules. None of them can be confirmed to be purely of one difficulty unless there's a track with just TGSAP scores that we can verify are at the same settings. The rule reversion we're talking about therefore is explicitly acknowledging how TG defined "default" for submission purposes. If we kept things on "disc=default," it wouldn't change the fact that Intellivision tracks you've submitted to are comprised of scores based settings that are below "disc."
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  6. swaggers's Avatar

    One of Al's arguments in the past (lost since he deleted his entire wall which contained rules questions and research) was that he got a score on Disc and that should be default since he has the top score. So someone should have to use Disc to beat him. Fine. The top score on Lock 'n' Chase was done on Disc so I don't know why we are looking to change it.

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  7. The Evener's Avatar

    Al doesn't have a score on Lock N Chase from my review of the track - top place belongs to Chris Dumaresq. Maybe you're thinking of a different track?

    I'm not convinced that creating a rule set that states "in order to claim first place you must compete on the same setting as the incumbent" is workable or desirable. Let's not forget we're in this pickle because a rule change was conducted on the premise that TG tracked default as disc. In fact, it didn't. I regret not tuning into this debate in 2017, but if we had confirmed back then the true definition of default, would we be entertaining the proposal to "use setting of top scorer to claim first place?" I thought the goal was to correct the original mistake, but does this boil down to Al's scores shouldn't be beat by users utilizing easier settings?

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    Updated 01-23-2020 at 02:01 PM by The Evener
  8. Snowflake's Avatar

    Quote Originally Posted by The Evener

    Al doesn't have a score on Lock N Chase from my review of the track - top place belongs to Chris Dumaresq. Maybe you're thinking of a different track?

    al had a youtube score of lock n chase that he since deleted. he only submits scores if they're first place. notice he said even here he needs the rule changed so he can submit. nothings stopping him from submitting now and then pushing for the rule change in parallel, but he doesnt do that.

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  9. The Evener's Avatar

    Sorry, edited above post after your reply.

  10. The Evener's Avatar

    Swaggers could you outline under what circumstances you think rule reversion is merited? It looks like your views evolved since the original back and forth with IM about his default = disc rule change in 2017/18, or I might be misrembering your points.

  11. swaggers's Avatar

    Evener it's not a score of Als. I am saying that Chris Dumaresq's score was done on Disc. Sorry for the confusion.

  12. Intellivision Master's Avatar

    That's how it works here at TG; insult a person until you get your way.

    Go ahead and change the rules to "select your starting speed".

    I wouldn't have submitted my scores here. I've only done 1/3 of what I can do on this console because of argument, defending myself and insults. You don't want to know the limits on these games? (Actually done on video)? That's your choice.

    I've submitted on 155 out of 200 tracks; and I'm being mocked on not submitting enough scores? You're too much guys.

    Leave all the impossible scores, screenshot scores, scores that allowed pausing and employ all the rules that the Intellivision Peanut Gallery decides.

    I couldn't care less.

    Ciao !!!

  13. The Evener's Avatar

    There's a lot of accusations there. I've been above board about treating this as a rule correction given that you didn't seek to undertake or couldn't find documentation about TGs definition of "default." I'll confess I don't understand why you feel that your achievements or contributions are diminished now that we've confirmed the default definition and appropriately wish to unwind the current version which is not the correct one. As I mentioned the reality of the Intellivision tracks are mixed so reverting the rule doesn't change that fact but aligns with the factual history of how TG adjudicated home console scores. Here are two pages from the 1998 TG Official Book of WR that arrived today about the rules as another source of confirmation.


    Sorry if they appear upside down - they appear right-side up on my computer. If you drag them to your desktop they should appear correctly for reading

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    Updated 01-23-2020 at 09:49 PM by The Evener
  14. Intellivision Master's Avatar

    I assume you're talking to me. I wasn't referring to you. Only the other two members whose motives here are obvious.

    I explained that there's tracks where everyone or the vast majority played on Disc Level. Brickout was submitted by players between 2010 and 2017. All were done on disc level. The rule guide from 1998 is not relevant. In fact, Since Brickout was never released to the public - it was solely a ROM on Mattel's office computer. It was grabbed off the internet and became a homebrew mainstream way after 1998. Possibly 2009.

    Skiing was done by everyone on disc level except "possibly" Banks in 2008 - where he submitted by video. The rules were not from 1998 here either. Also his scores are one-and-done, inaugural non-competitive runs. So why are we doubling-up on 30 tracks to preserve one player's scores? Same with Motocross. Banks "possibly" didn't play on Disc in 2008. All the rest did play on Disc. His times on Motocross are also one-and-done inaugural, non-competitive scores. The fact that he "may" have had an advantage is moot.

    Answering your question "why do you care? nothing changes?": Because the rest of us played Disc level and competed on disc level. So we have to create 34 new tracks for these two games, for Disc Level, and re-submit all of our scores ... spending a ton of time and paying a ton of submission points because Banks "may" have had an advantage for his inaugural scores. We then have to re-play 34 tracks to be competitive on a "choose your level" track. Because there's a slight advantage to playing those games slower.

    I'm just answering your questions. And I don't agree that your 1998 TG page is relevant to all the games listed for the reasons above. And I already explained them. Although you did appear to be on the same page as me earlier in the blog; but now you seemed to have changed your mind regarding tracks where all or most players competed on disc level.

    But you guys change them all if that's what you think should be done.








  15. Jace Hall's Avatar

    I am going to re-read this whole thread this weekend to make sure I understand all the viewpoints and then will make a decision regarding this stuff.

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  16. Intellivision Master's Avatar
    Ok!




    Quote Originally Posted by Jace Hall
    I am going to re-read this whole thread this weekend to make sure I understand all the viewpoints and then will make a decision regarding this stuff.
  17. The Evener's Avatar

    Quote Originally Posted by Jace Hall

    I am going to re-read this whole thread this weekend to make sure I understand all the viewpoints and then will make a decision regarding this stuff.

    Thanks for earmarking the time to read through the discussion.

    Before diving into this thread (which is more or less a debate about what methodology or metric to use to tackle default rule reversion), I'd recommend starting with the preceding thread that discussed Astrosmash and the "impossibility" of equaling Rick Fothergill's 4 million point score, which prompted me to examine the issue of how TG defined and applied "default" rule settings on the Intellivision submissions historically.

    https://www.twingalaxies.com/intellivision-master/wall/7717/astrosmash-scores-must-be-removed-and-moved#comments

    And taking one step further back to the beginning, here's a link to a 2018 wall post discussion that I believe started on Intellivision Master's Wall, but was subsequently moved to Dave's wall. The topic concerns a range of rule changes proposed by IM. Please note that there are a number of post deletions from what I gather, so the discussion may not flow as expected.

    https://www.twingalaxies.com/dave-hawksett/wall/4135/intellivision-track-fixes/page/3#comments

    Notwithstanding some great overall work in rule clarification by IM, the genesis of the current problem relates to earlier ambiguity over the definition of "default" on Intellivision console tracks that arose around 2017 due to the fact that the "corporate knowledge" around the meaning of default faded with member turn-over, and past iterations of the TG website that explained "default" were superceded by new site designs that didn't preserve earlier content, or at least made it hard to find. In the absence of research into the topic, it was asserted (and subsequently accepted by Dave) that "default = disc" was in fact the historical TG definition, and therefore the addition of this language to tracks was not a rule change but a rule "clarification" for people who are non-experts on the Intellivision console.

    The most germane discussion around "default" starts with Swagger's post half-way down on page 3, and continues more or less until page 5.

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    Updated 01-23-2020 at 10:18 PM by The Evener
  18. The Evener's Avatar

    Quote Originally Posted by Intellivision Master

    I'm just answering your questions. And I don't agree that your 1998 TG page is relevant to all the games listed for the reasons above. And I already explained them. Although you did appear to be on the same page as me earlier in the blog; but now you seemed to have changed your mind regarding tracks where all or most players competed on disc level.

    But you guys change them all if that's what you think should be done.

    I was indeed looking at a metric to divide up or prioritize changes based on quantity of pre or post-TGSAP scores per track, but in light of some responses I felt that I was muddying the waters overall about the rule reversion debate, so to clarify the core question I moved away to focus again on the notion that an incorrect global rule change can be a candidate for a global change back. That said, I think we're at the point where a referee decision is needed about the process.

  19. Snowflake's Avatar

    jace to add to the above links, i dont know if as an admin you can see deleted posts. but heres the now broken link to one of al's wall post dealing with his issues with starting speeds at the time.

    https://www.twingalaxies.com/entry.php/3068-WHAT-DEFAULT-SKILL-LEVEL-MEANS-ON-INTELLIVISION-TRACKS

  20. The Evener's Avatar

    Wayback grabbed it but there's some wonky formatting and missing images. It looks like this wall post preceded the default rules changes taken up by Dave in the above thread by a few months.

    https://web.archive.org/web/20180124205422/https://www.twingalaxies.com/entry.php/3068-WHAT-DEFAULT-SKILL-LEVEL-MEANS-ON-INTELLIVISION-TRACKS

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